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Hey, what is up?
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Welcome to this episode of the Entrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.
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As always, I'm your host, brian LoFermento, and we have got an entrepreneur on today's episode that I have been so excited to talk about, because this is someone who not only has grown a worldwide, rapidly growing successful business, but someone who helps you and I do the exact same in our own businesses.
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He's so passionate about helping other businesses grow, reduce costs, increase productivity Gosh, I'm excited for today's conversation.
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Our guest today.
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His name is Adam Pisk.
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Adam is the co-founder of Bruntwork, which is a fast-growing remote-only outsourcing company.
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With over 25 years in sales and operations leadership, adam has dedicated his career to delivering exceptional value to his clients.
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Now Bruntwork.
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I love their company's mission.
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Their slogan is Outsource Anything.
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They specialize in reducing operational costs by transitioning operations to cost-effective regions like the Philippines, colombia and Kenya, just as three examples.
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In just over three years, this is a crazy growth story.
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They've scaled to over 3,000 staff members serving clients in 14 countries, including the US, canada, australia, the UK, new Zealand, singapore and more.
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Adam excels in driving global market expansions and using consultative selling techniques to boost revenue and build lasting client relationships.
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His goal is to ensure that clients are set up for scalable success and can make a meaningful impact in their markets.
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I'm personally excited about this one.
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We're going to learn a lot, so I'm not going to say anything else.
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Let's dive straight into my interview with Adam Pisk.
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All right, adam, I'm so excited that you're here with us today.
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First things first, welcome to the show.
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Thanks for having me, brian, I appreciate it.
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Heck, yeah, I'm going to publicly praise you, because you and I were joking about it off air.
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You're coming to us all the way from Australia at six o'clock in the morning.
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Our listeners, just like myself, we thank you for that, adam, so I'm going to give you the stage first To speak to you.
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I'd get up at three if I had to right.
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I so appreciate that, and you know what.
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It's funny we're talking about time zones, because I'm sure it's going to factor into today's conversation in this global economy.
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But before we get to the good stuff, take us beyond the bio, adam, because you not only have an incredible growth story with Bruntwork, but you've been at this and really refining your skills and experiences along the way.
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So take us beyond the bio.
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Who's Adam?
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How'd you start doing all this stuff?
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Look, the short long story is I left school and got into accounting and started working for KPMG as an undergraduate, doing university at night.
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Working during the day realized in the corporate environment wasn't really my calling, and actually someone in KPMG who's also there it wasn't their calling came up with an idea in business and it was setting up cafes in the foyer of buildings.
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Back in 1998, when that wasn't really done, anyway, got the sense of being in business, scaled a number of cafes back, then left the accounting profession, found myself in business at really the age of 19, 20, and continued from there with a lot of ups and downs in between.
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So that's sort of my short story with a lot of little long stories in between that that get to where we are today.
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Yeah, I love that overview, especially because you hit the nail on the head.
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I've never heard anyone articulate it that way that life is a series of short stories that hopefully make one cohesive story when we look backwards, but obviously so much of it in the rearview mirror.
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It makes sense that you got your business chops through those short stories, but obviously what you've done with Bruntwork has been an incredible success.
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I know that this was born out of the pandemic, so take us to the early beginning blocks of Bruntwork.
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Yeah, look a lot of people when they talk about fast business growth and, as you said, you know in Brumwick we've been around a little bit over three and a bit years, had a lot of experience in outsourcing prior to that, but this company only started three and a bit years ago and, to get you know, well, over now, 3,000 staff in a short period of time is has been an incredible journey.
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Has been an incredible journey.
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But a lot of people say, oh, this is because of my skill in this, or I was great at this, or I identified this opportunity.
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A lot of people that get into this position, I think, downplay the role of luck in where they are and we were very fortunate to be in the right place at the right time, with some opportunities that presented themselves early on in the pandemic that we then took advantage of.
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But obviously all the negativity of COVID and the challenges of that did present some opportunities and we were lucky enough to be in a very good position to take advantage of that at the time and then have sort of the ability to continue the growth story.
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So, yeah, it born out of COVID.
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I can delve deeper into that if you'd like me to.
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Yeah, please do, because obviously we're going to talk a lot about outsourcing here today, which is a scary topic for a lot of people who haven't experienced it.
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But I'd love to hear those building blocks because it seems to me from the outside and, adam, I'd love for you to correct this story or shed some light on the real stuff.
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Is that you and your team behind Bruntwork, you were very willing and excited to say hey, if we're serious about growth, we need more hands involved, and you've obviously always embraced outsourcing.
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So how did that, in and of itself, play into the founding of Bruntwork?
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Obviously, growing that team, it takes so much resources and manpower to get there.
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Yeah, so the backstory is that we have another business, which is a technology business, that we've been running since 2008.
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We've been outsourcing that business since 2014.
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And actually the story of that's pretty interesting in that it's an Australian company, tech business and we couldn't get the metrics to work, in the sense that our client base was very fixed on a price point and our cost base was fairly high and we couldn't get the cost of marketing, payroll those costs to generate profit, given what we could sell the product at.
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And so I joined that company in 2014.
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And the first thing that I looked at was how can I reduce the cost base to actually make some money out of this Venture-backed business?
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Couldn't make money because just the market was very price sensitive, and so the first thing we did is we moved every single role from Australia to the Philippines.
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That's every single role.
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That was the only way that company was going to survive, and when people think about outsourcing, they think back office roles or VAs or very simple roles.
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In that business it was every role, from software engineers to hr, to finance, to accounting, to customer support, to our sales team.
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So a lot of people go on.
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Surely offshore sales teams can't outperform, uh, local sales teams.
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And we proved that wrong and have done that time and time again.
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So it's not just the thinking of, oh well, I can just outsource the easy tasks, and sure you can, but that's quite myopic in its thinking.
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You can really outsource any role that you can't find people locally or it doesn't make sense to find people locally.
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So we proved the model really back in 2014, and that business then became profitable, continues today and is still profitable because of that model.
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But when COVID hit, that business, which relied on basically contractors, was pretty much shut down because contractors couldn't operate.
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Particularly in Australia.
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We had some of the toughest lockdowns in the world.
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So we were like, oh, we've got all this stuff in the Philippines with very strong skill sets.
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What can we get them to do?
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We need to save their jobs.
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What can we get them to do?
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This other business can't operate because of the environment.
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And so we approached a large supermarket chain in Australia that was very much based on bricks and mortar, so it wasn't into the online delivery.
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It was very much about the experience If you walk into the store, you feel an orange and you buy it, and they weren't set up for online.
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So when COVID hit, they were in a difficult position because they didn't have that online delivery in place.
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So we pitched them.
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We said we've got an entire team in the Philippines with every role that you really need, we've got the developers, we've got customer support.
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We can build you an online presence very quickly for your supermarket chain, help with online delivery, logistics, customer support and we got that up and running in a matter of weeks.
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It was like two or three weeks.
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We got them up and running and online and they were then selling almost the majority of their business through the large supermarket chain, then through an online mechanism through COVID, and that was the first thing that we said okay, we've got something here.
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And then that news got around and then other major companies heard of us, including a major fashion company that had 1100 stores in shopping centers, also didn't have an online presence, and then within really three months, we ended up having over 350 staff in this new business and solving some pretty big problems through COVID.
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And then we said, okay, we've got something here, let's see how we can scale it.
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So that's a little bit of the backstory into how Promwork started, and then it really just snowballed from there.
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Yeah, adam, I can't help but notice in the way that you talk about outsourcing is that I feel like Fiverr and Upwork.
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They've limited our perception of outsourcing and the way that we view outsourcing as project-based.
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But you keep saying the word team.
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To me it sounds like you view it as outsourcing an entire team, genuinely building a team of worldwide talent.
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Talk to us about that, because obviously we can outsource in all of those ways, including project-based ways, but talk to me about your perspective of that source in all of those ways including project-based ways, but talk to me about your perspective of that.
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Yeah, so look, there's certainly a big market opportunity for the Upworks and Fiverr and that is, we would say, freelance, project-based.
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So if you need something, a certain thing done within a set time period and that's it, I need someone for two weeks to upload data into my CRM and that's all I need done.
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Upwork and Fiverr are excellent for that.
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When you need someone who actually and I suppose the best way to define what we do more is like global employment as a concept.
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So if you're actually looking to scale your team and if you're looking to say, hey, I need more people in my business as part of my actual infrastructure, whether it be part-time, whether it be full-time, but more as an ongoing role, whatever that role is, that's where we can help.
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So it's not so much limited project base.
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It's like I need to hire someone.
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Their job is behind a computer, rather than looking just in my small town in Arkansas or wherever it is, and I'm very limited to the people that can come actually to an office within a small area.
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I can actually go to the world and in going to the world, I can get the most qualified people out there at the best possible price, and that's the way to look at it.
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It's not so much project-based, it's I want to go to the world and get the best people in the world to help me scale my business and in the same way, you get cost efficiencies as well.
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Yeah, I love that you directly called that out.
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It's so limiting if we focus on our only geographic area.
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I started my first business back in 2008 in the Boston area, which Boston is world-renowned for Harvard and MIT and so many colleges per capita, a lot of really talented grads, so there's talent there.
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However, you're bringing in not only the talent side of the equation but the cost side of the equation, which I think is really important, especially because we're talking about the aftermath of a global pandemic where inflation's been wild.
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Here in the US you can go get $20 an hour at Target, for example, and so we've seen that side of it.
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But, adam, still for a lot of people who haven't dipped their toes into the world of outsourcing, they probably don't realize the global talent pool is at their fingertips.
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Talk to me about geography behind outsourcing.
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It sounds like you and I are very aligned.
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I've loved having team members from the Philippines and from Colombia.
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Listeners know that behind the scenes at the Entrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast, those are two countries where our team members are from.
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But, adam, why these countries?
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Are there certain country considerations when we talk about geography or what makes a talent pool really successful from a certain region?
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Yeah.
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So it's sort of two parts of that question.
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One is like the geography and then how can a small business be comfortable in going through this process?
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But start at the geography first.
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For us, the three markets that we focus on at the moment Philippines is the largest market.
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For us.
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That's been like the world BPO business process outsourcing headquarters for the last 25 years, and the reason for that is it's an English speaking country, so English is one of the national languages.
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There's a local language and English, so everyone speaks English.
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The other thing is a US influenced university system that's accredited and has graduates that come out at a high level, high levels of critical thinking, et cetera.
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So you've got English-speaking, high level of university-educated people, 110 million population, and you've now got the government's now invested a lot more in infrastructure around that, so you've got decent.
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You've got good internet.
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Now you've got good power supply, so you've got reliability in that sense as well.
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So you've got a deep talent pool that's been supporting the us market for a very long time and the global market.
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Colombia is a our sort of second region where we have the second largest number of staff, and that's a growing region for us, growing in the sense same time zone as the US, which is an advantage.
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With the Philippines, 70% of our staff work through the night, which, again, it's been ingrained in their culture.
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It's not an issue for them, they like to do it.
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Their whole life is set up that way.
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Whole life is set up that way.
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The economy is set up that way.
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But in Colombia same time zone also a great university system.
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English now is compulsory at school, so getting a larger English-speaking population, good education system and now an emerging outsourcing market.
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The other big advantage of Colombia is often bilingual, so you have a lot of US companies that have a lot of Spanish speaking clients, let's say, or interactions and clients or staff.
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Colombia is the obvious choice, or South America at least, where you've got English and Spanish as languages.
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Kenya is our latest market and that's on more the European time zone.
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Kenya has had a large British influence in terms of its education system.
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Their education system is good, also English-speaking, a lot of French speakers there too, but a lot of English speakers.
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A lot of creative talent is coming now from Africa, so a lot of digital graphic designers, social media specialists, creatives.
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So that's also an emerging market for us as well that we're investing more time and effort into.
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Yeah, adam, it's funny Anytime people listen to business podcasts.
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Everything always sounds so easy.
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Here, you and I are singing the praises of the power of outsourcing, but of course, there are logistical challenges that present themselves along the way.
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The first of which I think it's very important for us to touch on here today is vetting candidates and understanding okay, this person from the Philippines, from Colombia, from Kenya, is it the right person for me?
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Are they good, are they reliable?
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So many questions that go behind vetting.
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Talk to us about that, because I know it's such an important and intentional part of what you all deliver at brunt work.
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Let's talk vetting and the considerations for entrepreneurs yeah, look, that's really this.
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Three and a half thousand outsourcing companies out there, and that's that actually was a year and a half ago, so there's probably even more now.
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So what's the difference really between most of them?
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And a lot can come down to are we a better customer service?
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We look after you.
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We understand your challenge more, your issue?
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Pretty much everyone says that, but at the end of the day, it comes down to who can find the best candidates for the best value for money for the type of business that's looking for them.
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That's really the differentiator.
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And for us, now where we are, just to give you a sense of scale, we get about 15,000 to 18,000 resumes a month of people applying to our roles we hire at the moment.
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This month we'll hire between 400 and 500 new staff.
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So just to give you a sense of what we're hiring and the growth.
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But that's still a small fraction of the people that are applying and we have a bench, let's say, of over 200,000 applicants that have applied.
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Now you can't effectively screen that and match and get good results without the utilization of the most advanced technology out there, and we made a decision really a year ago but have continued doing that constantly in terms of AI technology.
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So the idea is you've got to match, like a small business in Arkansas versus a big business in New York versus another business in Singapore is going to have different needs, different culture.
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Even the same job will need a different type of person, and just to get the screening and be able to do this at scale, you need very good people managing a process and you need the right technology to make sure we're doing it efficiently and effectively and that it's constantly learning about mixing and matching people to company and opportunities.
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Otherwise, you get turnover, which isn't good for people Entering into outsourcing, isn't good for the agents and isn't good for us because we recruit for free.
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So we're all in in terms of technology.
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I think we're probably leading the space in terms of AI matching technology that we've developed.
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Holy cow, Adam.
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I always argue with people that hiring is probably the hardest part in all of business, and now I'm talking to someone who is literally hiring hundreds of people per month at that scale.
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That's incredible and so obviously it shows your emphasis on technology and really refining this, which comes from, of course, behind the technology is your human experience, having done this so many times before.
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But I think it does lead to that big question for the consumers, which are the business owners, the entrepreneurs who are turning to Bruntwork for that sort of outsourcing what's that onboarding look like?
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Because hiring someone is one thing, but setting them up for success is incredibly important.
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What's that look like on your client's level?
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Yeah.
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So the point is, a lot of clients that come to us some are very experienced with outsourcing, like you are.
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You've had a lot of experience before.
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It's a different process for someone like you that has gone through it.
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But a lot of our clients have never done it before and it's intimidating for them on through it.
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But a lot of our clients have never done it before and it's intimidating for them.
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And they they've.
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They're from small businesses.
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They haven't really managed people themselves locally, let alone someone from the other side of the world.
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So the idea is really that the secret is in those initial calls, that we have to discover what really are the key things that this business needs to move the needle from this type of candidate.
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Because a lot of people go oh, I've read Tim Ferriss' book A Four-Hour Workweek, I need some form of outsourcing, but without really defining what that job and that role is.
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So the idea is to get our client's mind into.
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This is no different to hiring locally in terms of the process.
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We need you to define the job description.
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We need to be really clear on what the objectives are.
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What does success look like for this person that you're hiring?
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We need to be really clear on that.
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And once we've got that, then it's a question of applying the other metrics, like cultural fit, et cetera.
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Is it a not-for-profit?
00:20:44.165 --> 00:20:47.289
Do we need to get someone who's passionate about the cause, for example?
00:20:47.289 --> 00:20:54.587
So it's skills, and then it's culture, and then attitude, and we have a whole lot of screening in place for that.
00:20:54.720 --> 00:21:00.539
And then in terms of the customers, it's going through that process and then we sit with them through interviews as well.
00:21:00.539 --> 00:21:02.848
So we will bring in candidates.
00:21:02.848 --> 00:21:15.386
Our team of experts will actually sit through the interviews with the clients, because often, again, a lot of clients they're good at running their business, they're not good at interviewing staff, and for us we recruit for free.
00:21:15.386 --> 00:21:19.826
So if our clients make the wrong decision, that also then is a cost to us.
00:21:19.826 --> 00:21:21.907
We have to replace the agents.
00:21:21.948 --> 00:21:25.306
Again, we do that for free, but we don't want to do that, we want to get it right.
00:21:25.306 --> 00:21:31.696
So we sit in that as well, and it's not until a client feels comfortable with a staff member.
00:21:31.696 --> 00:21:32.840
That's when our agreement starts.
00:21:32.840 --> 00:21:35.426
We do everything on the front end for free.
00:21:35.426 --> 00:21:37.811
There's no contractual obligation.
00:21:37.811 --> 00:21:39.041
Then it's only month by month.
00:21:39.041 --> 00:21:45.409
So again, there's still no long-term contracts until they actually find someone that they wanna work with.
00:21:45.409 --> 00:21:50.125
And then the onboarding process as well is very involved, particularly for the first 30 days.
00:21:50.125 --> 00:22:20.063
So we provide all the tools that they would need to utilize if they wanna use it, or our staff member can use their existing tools either way, and we go through and through the first 30 days, have a whole lot of touch points to make sure that they understand best practice and how to manage an outsource staff member or an outsource team, and they have an account manager, a dedicated account manager that really holds their hand, particularly through the first 90 days and then beyond.
00:22:20.684 --> 00:22:21.929
Yeah, adam, it's so.
00:22:21.929 --> 00:22:30.306
I love the fact that you called out the four-hour work week by Tim Ferriss, because for a lot of us, myself included, it feels like that book came out decades ago, which it probably did at this point.
00:22:30.306 --> 00:22:39.301
But I think that was our first real view into the fact that this is an opportunity and hopefully this episode is doing the exact same thing for our listeners, getting them excited about this.
00:22:39.301 --> 00:22:43.788
But anytime, we all get excited about some sort of growth strategy for our businesses.
00:22:43.788 --> 00:22:53.824
The next question, ultimately, is, of course, costs and, adam, I'm going to publicly praise Bruntwork because you all have a cost calculator right there on your website publicly.
00:22:53.824 --> 00:23:02.813
So obviously we can't go into all the logistics of if someone's looking for a designer versus finance but gives people some ballparks for people who have never outsourced.
00:23:02.813 --> 00:23:04.184
How affordable is this?
00:23:04.184 --> 00:23:10.566
You talk about recruiting for free, which I know is going to be eye-opening for a lot of listeners, but what do the actual costs look like?
00:23:12.249 --> 00:23:18.267
So the way we do it is we present candidates and their rate range.
00:23:18.267 --> 00:23:19.651
Their rate includes everything.
00:23:19.651 --> 00:23:34.346
So if you're given a candidate and it's given us and they have a rate that includes computer, internet, payroll, hr, it support, account management, all the data security products that you need, any of the project management tools, it's all included and we recruit for free.
00:23:34.346 --> 00:23:38.402
So if you're given an hourly rate at the end of the month, we invoice monthly.
00:23:38.402 --> 00:23:38.762
That's all.
00:23:38.762 --> 00:23:41.267
You pay Hours, worked times, hourly rate.
00:23:41.267 --> 00:23:45.054
It's really, really simple in that sense that covers all fees.
00:23:45.619 --> 00:23:47.828
So the question of what is a cost?
00:23:47.828 --> 00:24:05.430
So the average price for our candidates and that's from literally CFOs down and senior accountants and programmers and software developers down to basic admin the medium level of price for us is about $6.50 an hour.
00:24:05.430 --> 00:24:06.592
Us right.
00:24:06.592 --> 00:24:07.433
That's the average.
00:24:07.433 --> 00:24:12.794
The rate range that we typically operate in is between $4 and $8 an hour.
00:24:12.794 --> 00:24:17.788
Obviously, at the $4 to $5 end you've got more simpler back office tasks.
00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:28.945
At the $8 end it could be things like more social media specialists or more technical roles, google ads, et cetera, and we do have roles with them, more technical, more specialized.
00:24:28.945 --> 00:24:37.385
They can go beyond that, they can go higher than that, but the majority are within that rate range makes it really affordable for someone to just go.
00:24:37.385 --> 00:24:38.809
I'm going to try this.
00:24:38.809 --> 00:24:41.185
I'm going to try one role I recruit for free anyway.
00:24:41.185 --> 00:24:51.355
I don't need to hire someone until I find someone that I want to work with and if you look at the costs on a monthly basis, it's really low and we hold your hand through the whole process.
00:24:51.355 --> 00:24:56.509
So you're really set up for success for this and we do part-time and full-time.
00:24:56.970 --> 00:24:58.093
So both options.
00:24:58.093 --> 00:24:59.442
I think that's really powerful.
00:24:59.442 --> 00:25:12.428
And it leads me to the next question, very simply, which is when, adam, you've grown your own businesses as well, in addition to, obviously, we're talking about your subject matter expertise with Bruntwork, which is outsourcing, but on a business owner to business owner level.
00:25:12.428 --> 00:25:17.224
What's your advice for listeners who maybe they've never hired anyone before and they're wondering.
00:25:17.224 --> 00:25:19.779
They hear so many guests, adam, I'll share this with you.