925: Leadership SKILLS + the power of being CLEAR w/ Brian Jones

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Hey, what is up?

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Welcome to this episode of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.

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As always, I'm your host, brian Lofermento, but I am not the only Brian on today's episode, because we are joined by an incredible entrepreneur who, I think, epitomizes so much of what we all need to be in our businesses, because this is someone who talks a lot about leadership, and I'm actually gonna, before I tell you about him, this is so strong.

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As soon as we came across his business, I loved the messaging right at the top.

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His website says the first thing you'll read is it's a tough business world out there.

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Leadership matters and leader skills matter now more than ever before, and those words are absolutely true and they're words that we all need to embrace on our own leadership journeys as entrepreneurs, as business owners, as business executives, which all of us are.

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So let me tell you about today's guest.

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His name is Brian Jones.

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Brian is a retired executive with more than 25 years of global leadership experience, including eight years spent living and working in Zurich, switzerland.

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He has held senior leadership roles at GE Insurance and Swiss RE in the areas of operations, claims strategy and casualty underwriting.

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Highly energized by helping people in businesses to develop and grow, upon his retirement, brian started his own leadership coaching and consulting business called Coaching for Executives LLC.

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Today, he works with individuals and teams at varying points of their leadership journeys, from would-be leaders to seasoned CEOs.

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He also consults with businesses on topics ranging from process improvement and simplification to organizational vitality, executive team development, as well as strategic growth.

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This is someone who is extraordinarily qualified any way that you look at it, whether you measure it by experience or credentials.

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He's someone who has a bachelor's and a JD from the University of Missouri Columbia.

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He is a GE-trained black belt and master black belt.

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He's a member of the International Coaching Federation.

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He's certified in so many different ways.

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This is someone who's brilliant in a lot of different things that he does, but we are going to learn about and be challenged to become better leaders today, so I'm not going to say anything else.

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Let's dive straight into my interview with Brian Jones.

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All right, brian, I am so excited that you're here with us.

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First things first, welcome to the show.

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Thank you, brian, nice to see you.

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Heck.

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Yes, so I obviously teased just a little bit of your incredible background, but take us beyond the bio.

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Who's Brian?

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How did you start doing all of these cool things that you get to do?

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Yeah, so, as you mentioned, I started my career in a very, let's say, traditional way.

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So I started coming out of law school practicing law for a few years and then I got into a company, so a company that was owned by General Electric.

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That company was called Employers Reinsurance Corporation.

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It was in Overland Park, kansas, and one of the great things about getting into a company like that was it was actually a global marketplace and a global business, and Overland Park happened to be the headquarters.

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So, very quickly in my career I got exposed to a lot of different business ideas, but also had really some great opportunities to work outside the United States early on, which was actually a pretty huge experience for me.

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So lots of opportunities for growth and development.

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Time passes, that companies bought by a company called Swiss Re.

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That provided more opportunities and, as let's say, life went on.

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I was lucky enough to be in a position to get progressively more responsibility, do some other cool things, and then at some point just decided, you know, I think I'm kind of ready to do something else.

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So nothing wrong with the company, nothing wrong with the job, but I decided I would take early retirement from my company and start doing something else.

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So that was the genesis of this coaching for executives business.

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Yeah, I love that overview, brian, and I want to go deeper there, because you said the word responsibility and I feel like, just in doing as much work as I've done researching you and your approach to leadership, obviously responsibility is at the core of leadership.

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Talk to us about how that manifested, and I want to hear it in two terms, one of which obviously the start of your business coaching for executives, but also, even more broadly speaking, take us into the world of leadership for people who may have put it to the side because we have a million other responsibilities as business owners.

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Yeah.

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So I think, in terms of leadership, one of the things that I've just observed in my corporate career and I've certainly observed it in my post-corporate career is right now a lot of companies aren't teaching leadership in the same way that I learned it, and that was really the opportunity for me in my coaching business.

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So when I was coming up in the business in the early 90s, if you were on a leadership track, if people had identified in you characteristics of leadership that they thought could be grown, you were put through actually programs.

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So there was a very structured training program.

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There was a very structured way of learning.

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You were expected to apply the skills you learned and as you did that, you got the opportunity to do bigger and bigger things.

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One of the things that I observe in the marketplace right now is a lot of companies, for probably many reasons probably cost, chief among these aren't investing in would-be leaders, future leaders, current leaders, in the way that they used to in terms of the acquisition of leadership skill sets.

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So if leadership is simply the manifestation of getting important work done through others, that's actually a lot of skill that has to underlie that in order for a leader to be effective.

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I don't think companies train in the same way they used to, and for me that's a pity because I think they shortchange their future.

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But it's also an opportunity for an entrepreneur because there's a marketplace out there to go and help those folks.

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Let's say grow skills, learn skills, apply those skills.

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Yeah.

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I want to ask you this then because now you've introduced us to two?

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I don't know if these are conflicting thoughts or differing schools of thoughts, of leadership characteristics versus leadership skills.

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Are these one in the same?

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Are they things that can be leader does?

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There's a whole huge body of work out there on what some of those, let's say, individual skill sets and competencies are.

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That's, those things are knowable.

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One of the key things, though, is to to learn the basics of each of those competencies and then have a chance to apply them.

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Like a lot of skills, you know if, if you play music, if you play sport or whatever, the skills you're learning in those particular domains, just like in leadership, are actually perishable.

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So if you don't get a chance to practice them and repeat them and, frankly, fall on your tail every now and again and learn from that, then those skills will atrophy and you're not going to get where you want to be.

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There are some things that are not teachable, and when I'm coaching people, one of the things I listen for is hey look, if you're a would-be leader of humans, do you like people?

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Fundamental question you need to like human beings if you're going to be a leader, in my view, because if you can't have some, let's say, compassion for people, some patience with people and an inborn desire to help them get better at their craft.

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I think leadership is probably not the place for you, and I don't think that particular element can be taught, brian.

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Yeah, no, I definitely.

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I hear your perspective on that, especially as someone.

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I'm an extreme extrovert and people always for example, on recording days, I do eight or nine interviews back to back to back to back.

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I know that that is not cut out for everybody.

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An extreme introvert needs to recharge their own batteries, whereas my batteries get charged by doing interviews, and so I know that, innately, there are these different things.

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But, brian, I guess it leads me to ask this question, because it is.

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It's it's an obstacle that I hear so many talk about within the world of entrepreneurship is oh, I'm an introvert, I'm not going to be good at sales, or I'm this, I'm not going to be good at something else.

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Are these things that we can overcome?

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Obviously, we'll go beyond the love of humans, which I so support, and I love that.

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That's top of your list there.

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But let's talk about the character differences, because I grew up playing competitive soccer.

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I had coaches who were introverted, coaches who were extreme extroverts.

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Some of them were motivators, some of them were disciplinarians.

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Talk to us about the different leadership styles depending on different personality traits.

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Sure, I think one of the key things to just recognize, brian, is look, is the awareness of who you are, and there are.

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I use with my clients different diagnostic tools, oftentimes to help them, let's say, be a little bit more self-analytical and perhaps a little self-critical about their disposition, how they are likely to show up on a good day, how their, let's say, strengths could be overplayed into a weakness.

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There are lots of tools out there that can help you understand these things.

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I would say to you, I myself am an introvert.

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After our podcast today, I mean this for me is actually a pretty big engagement.

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This, for me, will be something that depletes me a little bit.

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I'm going to need to go downstairs and have a cup of coffee, talk to my wife, pet the cat and then come back to the work.

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My point is, irrespective of one's disposition, I think leadership or any particular activity can be done, but what you have to do is recognize how you present yourself into the world.

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So if you're an introvert, part of what that means is, let's say, you're on a stage in front of a bunch of people and they're people you lead and you're responsible for.

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Hey, look, I need to, in this case, demonstrate and be cognizant of how I'm being perceived.

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So I need to probably up my volume.

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I need to up my energy.

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I have that inside me.

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I'm enthusiastic about what I'm doing, but what I need to transmit to the people I'm leading is they understand.

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I'm enthusiastic about it.

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I'm not totally inside myself, as I'm, in a way, performing my leadership responsibilities and my leadership job.

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Yeah, and I think that's really important.

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You started at awareness and obviously that's step one of most great processes and journeys in life, and when I hear you talk about awareness, I think about knowing ourselves, and I'm a big sucker for personality tests.

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I love Myers-Briggs.

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We've had guests on who have talked about the power of Enneagram and their own personal development and professional developmental journeys.

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Which leads me to this question as far as and I kind of alluded to it with regards to soccer coaches are there different leadership styles?

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Is there a style that is right for me, that may or may not be right for you?

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How do we go about navigating?

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Because a lot of people I'm going to interject this into the conversation, brian is that a lot of people, when they start their entrepreneurial journey, whether it's their first business or their fifth business, whatever it may be they aren't recognizing or they may not realize just yet that when I start my business, I am inherently a leader.

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Even if I have no employees, I'm leading my clients, I'm leading a lot of things.

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So how do we go about figuring out that leadership identity?

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Yeah, I think a good place to start is with your values.

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What's important to you and whatever your style is, whatever the words you speak to people, you look, if you have a North Star about what you're trying to accomplish and who you are, you're probably on the right path, stylistically right.

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Where people get into trouble, my observation is, is when they're actually fighting themselves.

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So if I'm an extreme, let's say, extrovert, and I'm in a room of people and I always have to be the center of the attention, if it's always about me in that, if I can't listen to other people, that will be a problem.

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Because, in the end, what is leadership about?

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In some cases, it's really about influencing people.

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It's getting people to come along with you on a journey.

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You may be their guide.

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There's a problem that has to be solved.

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There's a where you want people to come and go with you.

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That's what you need to be focused on, and there are lots of paths up the mountain.

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Right, you can be an introvert, an extrovert, you can be a lot of things, but in the end you have to be focused on am I effectively communicating my vision?

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Am I effectively telling people how, why it's so important that we undertake this journey together, and am I effectively bringing them along with me on that journey?

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These are, I would say, almost litmus tests, or different way stations along the path up that you need to be, let's say, reflecting and asking yourself is it working, and if not, okay, fair enough, let's course correct and let's fix it.

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Yeah, and I think that's really powerful.

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You just introduced a word there that we have to talk about here in today's session together, which is listening, because I feel like that's one of the misconceptions that a lot of entrepreneurs make when it comes to business.

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I'm not even talking leadership right now, but a lot of entrepreneurs think that because I'm the business owner and the subject matter expert, I must have all of the answers, and the reality is, a lot of times, the answers we find in business come through listening.

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If you want to know who your ideal customer is and where you should be, what marketing channels you should be pursuing, listen to your people, listen to the people you serve.

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They are the only ones that have those answers.

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But, brian, it's tough as listeners or as leaders sometimes to realize it's not my voice that's needed right now.

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I need others' voices.

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Talk to us about the role of listening in leadership and, importantly, I want to add on to this, because I know that this is something that you've invested a lot into is listening skills for people who may not recognize when they are, or may not be, the best listeners.

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How do we develop those listening skills?

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What do those look like?

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Sure, Well, let me start a little bit with the basic topic of listening.

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I talk to a lot of leaders in my coaching business who have a model in their mind of hero or leader as hero.

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So I'm at the apex of the pyramid, as you said.

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I must have all the answers, because I'm at the apex and I'm going to tell everybody how it is.

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That's almost never the right model, the hero model.

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Now, if the building is on fire and we've all got to get out of the building, then you want the hero to say folks, let's get out of the building.

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That's typically not the case, right?

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And the metaphor I like to use with people is think of yourself as an orchestra conductor.

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So you're in front of the orchestra, you are setting the tempo, you are judging the sound coming to your ears from the different sections of the orchestra.

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You're telling the woodwinds they're too loud.

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You're telling the brass they're not enough.

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You're doing whatever a conductor is, because you're receiving all those voices at once and you're helping to interpret those so that the audience has a good experience.

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That's really the role of the leader.

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You set the tempo, you judge the balance and you correct as you go, but you're not the soloist.

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You're not the hero, you're not the person standing up there and doing your thing by yourself.

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You are actually representing that collective group.

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So so when we talk about listening, then if we translate that metaphor into real life situations, part of what I encourage people to do because a lot of leaders have still in their mind I'm in charge, therefore I must have the answers a great technique is to simply sit there and listen and keep your mouth shut right.

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The metaphor of you have the ratio of two ears and one mouth for a reason is something to pay attention to.

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The other thing you can do as you're taking in information is ask people clarifying questions.

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First of all, if you're asking them to tell you more, kind of like what you just did with me, brian that indicates you're hearing what's being said and you're trying to understand it and perhaps build on it, but you're not then just spewing out the answers to people.

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So that's one of many active listening techniques.

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It's always great to ask open questions.

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It's always great to tell me more.

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Help me understand, tell me what you believe.

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Help me understand why you believe that those kinds of clarifying questions actually indicate you're present in the room.

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You're hearing the person.

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You may not agree, but that's all right.

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You're hearing, you're processing and you're going to move forward together.

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Yeah, I love that, Brian.

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I feel like you just exposed one of my best hacks here, live on the air, which is tell me more.

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Those three questions are so magical People always ask me.

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Obviously, being a podcast host, I ask a lot of questions, I have a lot of awesome conversations, but I found that those three words tell me more.

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It's the most powerful phrase that we can use in conversation, because I know that you will tell me the good stuff instead of me guessing how to get the good stuff out of you.

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You will guide us there, and so I love giving you and all of our guests and anyone who I'm talking to, that platform to expose their brilliance, Cause the whole reason we're here is because we want to learn from you, Brian.

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So I absolutely love that perspective and how you called that out for listeners.

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I think it's such a powerful thing for all of us to incorporate, even in I'm going to extrapolate this again to sales.

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For all of you entrepreneurs who are in sales conversations, when your prospect is telling you their pain points, don't feel like you have to force feed them the solution.

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Just say tell me more about that.

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And so, Brian, to this point, you're obviously giving us these really practical tools, but I'm also of the belief that so many things in life just like you used the sports analogy already is that it's through reps.

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We always get better at things through reps.

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How do we start gaining these reps?

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Obviously, we can hear these things on a podcast episode and we can go do it in our next sales conversation.

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But you teach people leadership and you help them become better leaders.

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How does that execution actually happen?

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Yeah, so when I'm coaching somebody, when we have a session, I mean part of what their responsibility is is to come to the session with an agenda.

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Now, from our first engagement, we have a set of ideas or set of topics that they want to work on in the course of our time together, and typically this is over a period of, you know, let's say, 10 coaching sessions, one hour per session, whenever they want to schedule it, and what we will do in those sessions is they will bring their agenda topic.

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Oftentimes it's about communication, oftentimes it's about influencing, oftentimes it's about, hey, how do I get more out of my team that kind of stuff?

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Right, what we will do in the session is I will ask a lot of questions about specifics on instances where they feel like it's gone great.

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Specifics on instances where they feel like it's gone great and instances where they feel like it's gone not so great.

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And part of what we're trying to tease out there, brian, is really method.

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I'm trying to understand and I'm trying to hold up the mirror to them so that they understand.

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Hey, here's my approach and here's why it crashed.

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All right, if that's why it's crashed, what method?

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What do you want to do next time differently?

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How do you want to hold yourself accountable in a different fashion to achieve a different outcome?

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Something else I encourage people to do with their bosses is to tell them hey look, I'm working on this, that or the other with my executive coach.

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I'm going to be practicing some new skills.

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It's not always going to go well.

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I really need you, as my line manager, to give me feedback on how I'm doing.

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It's also very powerful, brian, when a coachee can have the courage to say to his or her team hey, team, I'm all about continuous improvement.

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I'm all about trying to improve your skills, but also my skills.

00:19:04.429 --> 00:19:05.453
I just want you to know.

00:19:05.453 --> 00:19:13.017
I'm working with a coach and we're working on the following things I would like your feedback on are you seeing an improvement in my communication?

00:19:13.017 --> 00:19:17.038
Are you seeing an improvement in terms of how I show up as your leader?

00:19:17.038 --> 00:19:38.787
Give me that feedback and, brian, that that sort of you know information coming from the field, coming from the world in which they live, is very, very powerful in the coaching sessions, because we can build on that and help reinforce the importance of practice and the importance of practice and the importance of continuing to deliver when it's working well and when they've made an improvement.

00:19:39.470 --> 00:19:44.589
Yeah, I think that's really powerful, especially because we've got to go deeper into the F word of feedback.

00:19:44.630 --> 00:20:11.817
I think that it's something that some people shy away from, but all of the growth happens in the feedback, in the assessment, and really I'm going to widen this conversation a little bit into the reflections and it's something that I heard many years ago from some incredible entrepreneurs that I get to interact with and I get to hope to aspire to be more like is that a lot of them talk about the importance of executive time alone, and for me, I once heard someone talk about going on coffee dates with themselves and it's something I took to heart.

00:20:11.884 --> 00:20:26.594
So every single week, I go to a coffee shop no laptop, no phone, and I just sit there and I ask myself the same seven questions every week and depending on the season of my life, those questions may differ a little bit, but I really reflect on hey, are we going in the right direction?

00:20:26.594 --> 00:20:28.548
Are these results the ones that I'm looking for?

00:20:28.548 --> 00:20:29.791
How can I get better?

00:20:29.791 --> 00:20:33.619
Talk to us about that's one sort of feedback loop that I use with myself.

00:20:33.619 --> 00:20:44.997
Talk to us about some feedback loops that we can build into our lives, to our professional careers to our personal development journey, so that we can always reflect and make sure we're on that same path.

00:20:46.984 --> 00:20:48.086
Great set of questions, brian.

00:20:48.086 --> 00:20:53.349
So let me start with feedback in a general sense, one of the things that I often end up coaching people about.

00:20:53.349 --> 00:20:59.253
With feedback, because it's very common to have somebody say to me God, I got this feedback and it was terrible.

00:20:59.253 --> 00:21:05.898
I feel gutted, right, somebody told me something and I'm so upset that I can't I can't figure out how to process it.

00:21:05.898 --> 00:21:09.521
An encouragement to people is always to be very clear.

00:21:09.561 --> 00:21:16.126
If you're asking for feedback, what are you asking for?

00:21:16.126 --> 00:21:18.355
A lot of people think when they ask for feedback, they're actually asking for confirmation.

00:21:18.355 --> 00:21:20.986
They want somebody to tell them hey, you're awesome, you're awesome right.

00:21:20.986 --> 00:21:23.778
You then feel great, you're confirmed, right.

00:21:23.778 --> 00:21:31.913
If you're asking for feedback, you are opening the door to hearing something that is not that you're awesome, but, hey, that may have been okay, but that's not your best work.

00:21:31.913 --> 00:21:34.458
Your best work was over here, and here's why.

00:21:34.458 --> 00:21:37.990
The second thing I just said there is the stuff you're looking for.

00:21:37.990 --> 00:21:44.384
You're looking for something that's going to you can build on, right, and so be clear with your own intention when you're asking for feedback.

00:21:44.384 --> 00:21:48.071
If you're just asking for a pat on the head, I wouldn't ask.

00:21:48.071 --> 00:21:51.137
I really wouldn't, and I think people oftentimes confuse the two things.

00:21:55.545 --> 00:21:58.453
In terms of feedback practices, one of the things I mean I really love what you say about your personal coffee dates.

00:21:58.453 --> 00:22:30.869
A key topic I coach executives and it doesn't matter if you're a CEO or a junior leader on is effectively time management, a key component of which is how do you set aside time every week where you're thinking bigger thoughts, where you have uninterrupted time to dream but also to think about the bigger rocks that need to be moved, and not just in the email churn or especially in corporations and big entities, you're actually so much of the day you're not dealing with the market, you're dealing with internal complexity, and that can strangle you.

00:22:30.869 --> 00:22:43.228
So I love your idea of getting off campus, getting off site, doing something that boxes in time and where you can really think the big thoughts that are going to drive your business, going to drive your team.

00:22:43.228 --> 00:22:47.645
That's a key topic I come back to almost, I would say, with virtually every client I work with.

00:22:47.645 --> 00:22:49.988
How are you finding that space for yourself?

00:22:51.269 --> 00:22:53.952
Yeah, and it's funny hearing you talk about CEOs.

00:22:54.294 --> 00:22:56.036
I think back, brian, in childhood.

00:22:56.395 --> 00:23:12.146
I remember as a child I was always I would look at these CEOs you know Fortune 500 companies because their salaries always make the headlines and I would say wait, that person who isn't actually in the factory, who's not manufacturing the shoes or whatever it may be, they're the ones getting paid the most.

00:23:12.166 --> 00:23:41.286
And I didn't understand the executive function, and I think that that's something that it's something that we are addressing here behind the scenes at the Entrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast is that I feel like, because of the rise of the term entrepreneur, we all have that image of the quintessential hustler, the person who's making moves, the person who's doing things, but somewhere along the way, entrepreneurs lost the executive function in the way that we operate within our businesses, and so I think that entrepreneur, it's a cool phrase.

00:23:41.286 --> 00:23:46.365
I think that it's part of the identity that you and I both have in the fact that we are starters.

00:23:46.365 --> 00:23:48.028
We don't wait for others' permission.

00:23:48.028 --> 00:24:00.616
There's a lot of cool things there, but talk to us about that important function of the executives, of a CEO, in a world where sometimes it is vilified and very often it's misunderstood.

00:24:01.704 --> 00:24:03.997
Yeah, I think you know you can, you can.

00:24:03.997 --> 00:24:10.478
There's a lot of stuff, like in the Harvard Business Review and other places, where they talk about the difference between an executive leader and a manager.

00:24:10.478 --> 00:24:16.317
So leadership, management, so management, is basically dotting the I's, crossing the T's.

00:24:16.317 --> 00:24:17.868
There are certain things that have to be done.

00:24:17.868 --> 00:24:19.353
It's a public company.

00:24:19.353 --> 00:24:22.411
You got all kinds of stuff that, legally speaking, has to happen.

00:24:22.411 --> 00:24:24.740
Somebody has to in quotes manage that.

00:24:25.321 --> 00:24:39.946
I think executive leadership is much more about coping not just with, let's say, complexity because the world is a complex place and the larger you become as an entity, the more complex it gets but coping with change.

00:24:39.946 --> 00:24:46.116
So if you're running any kind of business whether it's the business I'm in, it's the business you're in change is all around us.

00:24:46.116 --> 00:24:47.884
There's a marketplace that is changing.

00:24:47.884 --> 00:24:49.895
There are opportunities every day.

00:24:49.895 --> 00:24:51.284
Ai is coming.

00:24:51.284 --> 00:24:51.965
What does it mean?

00:24:51.965 --> 00:24:54.009
Who knows right?

00:24:54.269 --> 00:25:07.048
So an executive leader is one who is spending some time looking down the field, surveying the landscape and saying, okay, what is behind me or what is in front of me, that's going to eat my lunch.

00:25:07.048 --> 00:25:12.145
A more positive way to think about it is hey, look, it's a crazy world out there.

00:25:12.145 --> 00:25:20.832
Where are opportunities for what I bring to a marketplace and what are unmet needs that people have out there, and I can go jump on those.

00:25:20.832 --> 00:25:23.076
Now, that's one thing.

00:25:23.076 --> 00:25:28.395
Another thing is especially if you have people who work for you is spending time developing people.

00:25:28.395 --> 00:25:32.326
That's an executive task, making sure you have some sense of that.

00:25:32.326 --> 00:25:37.708
If people are working for you, they perceive something that feels like a career trajectory.

00:25:37.708 --> 00:25:40.220
They have things they can learn, they have places, they can grow.

00:25:40.220 --> 00:25:45.214
They're going to want to stay with you because there's something in it for them beyond the salary.

00:25:45.214 --> 00:25:47.026
That's another thing you have to be wondering about.

00:25:47.026 --> 00:25:58.169
But your competitors, the marketplace, how the world is changing around you, those are all executive things and they represent, you know, let's say, opportunity and massive risk if unaddressed.

00:25:59.070 --> 00:26:01.517
Yeah, really well said and important considerations.

00:26:01.517 --> 00:26:08.567
Listeners, I'm going to tell you, use the rewind 30 seconds button in your podcast player right now and re-listen to that answer from Brian.

00:26:08.567 --> 00:26:17.169
Brian, because these are functions that we must be addressing in our businesses, and it's easy, it's very easy for all of us to get caught up in the day-to-day.

00:26:17.169 --> 00:26:23.359
We have a million things that we're focused on as business leaders, from marketing to sales, to fulfillment, to our email inboxes.

00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:27.910
There's so many responsibilities we have, but you also must be surveying the field.

00:26:27.950 --> 00:26:32.037
I love that visual that you're painting for us here today, brian, because it's so important.

00:26:32.037 --> 00:26:37.210
And I want to ask you this, because I know this about your clientele and I also know it's a feeling that's shared.

00:26:37.210 --> 00:26:46.750
You and I have had this at various points in our personal journeys, and every entrepreneur has this where they're yearning for more and they wonder if there's something more out there for them.

00:26:46.750 --> 00:26:56.808
And so many of your clients are at that career inflection point where they've become leaders in whatever rights they've taken up to this point in their journeys, but they're thinking what else is out there?

00:26:56.808 --> 00:26:59.315
What is it about that feeling, brian?

00:26:59.315 --> 00:27:03.589
What sparks that in us and how do we go about beginning to find that answer?

00:27:04.571 --> 00:27:09.128
Well, I think, especially for people who have a background like mine in a company.

00:27:09.128 --> 00:27:27.851
So you can see very much the, let's say, vertical trajectory of your career, right, you can see that you're moving up in responsibility, you got more folks, more money, you're responsible for whatever, and those are all, and achieving those steps can be very, very, let's say, fulfilling, because you feel like, in quotes, I made it, I'm doing all right, I'm a big shot.

00:27:27.851 --> 00:27:28.313
Look at me.

00:27:28.313 --> 00:27:38.467
I think, though, once you've been in one of those roles for a period of time, you also start recognizing there are limits to how much this is going to give me satisfaction.

00:27:38.467 --> 00:27:52.888
There are limits to how long actually I can stay running at this particular pace, and they're become, I would say, in people's lives, sort of diminishing returns, as they see parents aging, they see co-workers not doing well, people getting sick, whatever.

00:27:52.888 --> 00:28:03.026
I think folks, especially in their 40s and 50s, start having these sort of moments of truth, maybe in the dark of the night, where they think, ah, really, until 65?

00:28:03.026 --> 00:28:04.228
Really, am I going to do this?

00:28:04.228 --> 00:28:05.349
I don't think so.

00:28:06.070 --> 00:28:15.948
What I end up talking to a lot of people about, and in fact I've even got I've got an ebook, brian, that'll be coming out on my website later this summer is about how to take those feelings apart and do something with them.

00:28:15.948 --> 00:28:38.277
So what I encourage people to do, and what I did myself, is spend a lot of this reflection time that we've spoken about thinking what do I like, what are my interests, what are my aptitudes, if I can stand outside myself, what am I objectively good at, and if I could do more of that and less of the stuff I hate, which is also another list I encourage people to make.

00:28:38.277 --> 00:28:42.433
What would my life look like, what would be possible for me?

00:28:42.433 --> 00:28:54.178
And then what you need to do, at least in my view, is start surveying the landscape to say, well, look, if I'm tired of this particular thing, I'm doing executive job, leadership job, whatever job, and I want to go somewhere else.

00:28:54.178 --> 00:28:56.887
Where is that else?

00:28:56.887 --> 00:28:59.494
Start making the list of are there markets?

00:28:59.494 --> 00:29:01.165
Should you start your own business?

00:29:01.165 --> 00:29:02.790
Is there another company that would be better?

00:29:03.532 --> 00:29:12.227
But really challenge yourself on your motivations and also, really importantly, challenge yourself on what are you willing to give up when it comes to making a change.

00:29:12.227 --> 00:29:16.397
A lot of my clients are pretty highly placed people and they're frustrated.

00:29:16.397 --> 00:29:35.394
They're not happy with their circumstance, but they're also not willing to give up, frankly, the goodies that a corporate executive job brings in terms of money, compensation, deferred comp, any of that kind of stuff, and being willing to say I'm doing all right, I can walk away from some of that stuff if I'm going to be happier in my life.

00:29:35.394 --> 00:29:44.954
That's also a very fundamental and important discussion which goes deep into a person's, let's say, sense of self-worth, but also their true, true values.

00:29:45.798 --> 00:30:02.017
Yeah, I think that is such an important point that you just made there, because we always use that term golden handcuffs and the only way out of those is that reflection, and I think it's really important for us to take those time and that exercise that you talked to us about making those lists what do I like, what do I not like?

00:30:02.017 --> 00:30:08.680
These are things that so rarely do we take the time during busy lives and busy careers to actually do that.

00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:12.106
But so much of today is about that level of intentionality.

00:30:12.106 --> 00:30:14.574
That's what you're really challenging us with here today, brian.

00:30:14.574 --> 00:30:16.228
I so appreciate those insights.

00:30:16.528 --> 00:30:31.691
I want to pick your brain here, just entrepreneur to entrepreneur, person to person, because you've had 25 plus years of global leadership experience in the United States as well as abroad, and I think that's such a cool challenge that you brought upon your own self, personally and professionally.

00:30:31.691 --> 00:30:36.308
I'd love to hear some of the traits or some of the good leaders that you've seen, that you've gone.

00:30:36.308 --> 00:30:36.711
You know what.

00:30:36.711 --> 00:30:38.622
I'm going to add that to my repertoire.

00:30:38.622 --> 00:30:40.388
That's something that I want to be more like.

00:30:40.388 --> 00:30:43.625
What are some of those people along your journey that left a mark on you?

00:30:44.827 --> 00:30:47.172
Yeah, so I worked in the General Electric Company.

00:30:47.172 --> 00:30:57.685
One of my bosses was the chief operating officer of our division and he was called Al Stanley.

00:30:57.685 --> 00:31:05.848
He's a Canadian guy and one of the things that he brought into our business when it was struggling was really, I would say, toughness, brian, but appropriate toughness.

00:31:05.848 --> 00:31:08.435
So we were in a business that was having a hard time.

00:31:08.435 --> 00:31:18.355
The market was against us, there were headwindss like you cannot believe, and one of the things that that guy, al Stanley, did was really focus on fundamentals.

00:31:18.355 --> 00:31:20.829
So there are fundamentals in this business that need to change.

00:31:20.829 --> 00:31:24.971
Let's agree what those are and then let's start knocking them off one by one.

00:31:24.971 --> 00:31:36.953
And when it comes to the toughness part, I was working this is during my Six Sigma time in that company we would have to show up and talk to Al Monday morning 7 am in Kansas City.

00:31:36.953 --> 00:31:43.076
Every Monday we had to show up and basically pitch our projects and, to be honest with you, the projects were kind of crap.

00:31:43.076 --> 00:31:48.277
I mean, we were not really doing the stuff we should be doing and the guy cracked us all in the head.

00:31:48.277 --> 00:32:01.875
But what I appreciated about him and he was fair about it, right, he was very objective but what I appreciated about him is not only did he crack you on the head, but he also gave you some insight into what was he looking for.

00:32:01.875 --> 00:32:03.505
What does good look like?

00:32:03.505 --> 00:32:20.232
He was able to build that box, and because he was able to be clear himself and hold us to a standard, we got better as a team and I've taken that lesson to heart in my own career and I've worked with several of the leaders.

00:32:20.625 --> 00:32:25.416
There's a woman in the UK that I worked for, nicola Parton very similar approach.

00:32:25.416 --> 00:32:35.553
I mean super objective, super tough, super, but clear, and when things weren't right, she would tell you what she wanted more of or less of, and then it was on you to go do it.

00:32:35.553 --> 00:32:42.396
She also had us all, as a leadership team, read a book by Brene Brown called Dare to Lead, which you may be familiar with.

00:32:42.396 --> 00:32:48.653
It's a great book, but the last thing I'll say is one of the taglines of that book is clear is kind.

00:32:49.053 --> 00:32:50.454
So that's that's a theme for me, right?

00:32:50.454 --> 00:32:51.615
Clear is kind.

00:32:51.615 --> 00:32:53.198
If you're clear with people that work for you.

00:32:53.198 --> 00:33:05.584
If you're clear with the people around you, you're actually being kind to them in terms of what the standard is, what the expectations are and what they need to do and one of the places where leaders get weak knees.

00:33:05.584 --> 00:33:12.460
A lot is actually back to the feedback topic not being clear and just assuming people know well, you're doing great, you're not doing great.

00:33:12.460 --> 00:33:16.349
That puts everybody in a bind because nobody knows how to move forward.

00:33:16.349 --> 00:33:21.883
So two of those leaders that have been super let's say instrumental in my life have those characteristics.

00:33:22.509 --> 00:33:49.513
Yeah, I really appreciate those insights and those lessons that you've shared with us, brian, through those great leaders, because I think it shows up so much in the way that you show up in the world, so I really appreciate the impact that they've had on you and also how, now, here, you are passing on those things that you've picked up from them along the way, not only through your words and sharing those real life stories with us here today, but also through the way that you show up and the way that you serve so many others, which we're going to talk about, because you are putting so much good stuff into the world.

00:33:49.513 --> 00:33:55.522
You already talked about the ebook that you're launching, but also you are putting out incredible content on LinkedIn.

00:33:55.522 --> 00:33:56.443
We're going to get there.

00:33:56.443 --> 00:34:06.219
Listeners will drop those links in just a minute, but before we do, brian, I love closing these episodes with a huge challenge to you, our guest asking you what's the one takeaway?

00:34:06.259 --> 00:34:27.262
We talked about so much good stuff today, and I know that listeners have a lot of homework and I feel like, in many ways, you've challenged them to be more intentional, to be more strategic and really to do that that assessment and self-analysis, to figure out who do I want to be and who am I, and how do I serve others and how can I be clear in all of the ways that I want to to guide them towards our shared objectives?

00:34:27.262 --> 00:34:31.998
So, with all of those good things in mind, what's the one takeaway that you hope they all walk away from?

00:34:32.038 --> 00:34:43.057
today's episode with Look, it's something that I coach my clients on all the time, and I think the fundamental nature of it, brian, is you need to know your own mind as best you can.

00:34:43.057 --> 00:34:48.242
Right, we're all complex, we all have all kinds of stuff bouncing around, let's say, between our ears.

00:34:48.242 --> 00:34:56.099
But trying to understand your own motivations, really being honest with yourself about what am I looking for in this life, what am I looking for in this job?

00:34:56.099 --> 00:34:59.393
Not what do my parents want, not what do my peers want from me.

00:34:59.393 --> 00:35:00.376
What do I want?

00:35:00.376 --> 00:35:00.739
Right?

00:35:00.739 --> 00:35:04.190
If you can be clear on those things, I think you've got a great start.

00:35:04.190 --> 00:35:09.262
And the other thing in terms of clarity is be active in the marketplace.

00:35:09.362 --> 00:35:12.641
If you work in a company or an organization, be active in that organization.

00:35:12.641 --> 00:35:16.313
Look for people that you resonate with right.

00:35:16.313 --> 00:35:18.498
Look for people who make sense to you.

00:35:18.498 --> 00:35:30.244
Look for leaders who seem to be really good at their craft and, with that same sort of analytical probe that you're using for yourself, try to understand what makes them good at that.

00:35:30.244 --> 00:35:42.817
So, if they're great at communication, or they're great at building a team, or they're great at making the place feel like a wonderful place to be, what is it specifically they're doing that makes it so, and are there things you could learn from that?

00:35:42.817 --> 00:35:44.594
Or are there things you could pick up?

00:35:44.594 --> 00:35:49.413
Correspondingly, by the way, if you're working for a craft leader, you can learn a lot from him or her too.

00:35:49.413 --> 00:35:54.530
Right, you can learn things like I'm never, ever going to be that person when I'm leading a team.

00:35:54.530 --> 00:35:56.876
But the point is awareness.

00:35:56.876 --> 00:36:03.695
Have a look around, see who good role models are, know yourself and try to emulate the good stuff that you see out there.

00:36:04.577 --> 00:36:06.681
Yes, gosh, really well said.

00:36:06.681 --> 00:36:08.757
I know that that's a difficult question to end on.

00:36:08.757 --> 00:36:14.476
When I throw it to our guests, I have no idea how they're going to navigate so much brilliance and experience that they have in their minds.

00:36:14.476 --> 00:36:19.670
But, Brian, you absolutely crushed that in sharing so many insights with us here today.

00:36:19.670 --> 00:36:26.706
I've already teased that this is just the tip of the iceberg into your brilliance, into your leadership, into all the goodness that you're putting into the world.

00:36:26.706 --> 00:36:37.550
So drop those links on us for listeners who want to go deeper into the Brian Jones executive and leadership rabbit hole with your business Coaching for Executives.

00:36:37.610 --> 00:36:38.351
Where should they go from here?

00:36:38.351 --> 00:36:45.257
So you can go check out my website wwwcoaching4, and that's the number four executivescom.

00:36:45.257 --> 00:36:47.300
You can also check me out on LinkedIn.

00:36:47.300 --> 00:36:53.847
I have frequent postings out there and you also see on my website all my longer form stuff in terms of blogs and whatnot.

00:36:58.269 --> 00:36:59.255
But those would be a good places to start, Brian.

00:36:59.255 --> 00:37:00.099
Yes, listeners, you already know the drill.

00:37:00.099 --> 00:37:01.606
We are making it as easy as possible for you to find all of Brian's links.

00:37:01.606 --> 00:37:11.797
You'll find his business website at coaching4, the number four, coaching4executivescom, as well as a link to his personal LinkedIn down below in the show notes, wherever it is that you're tuning into today's episode.

00:37:11.797 --> 00:37:15.364
So click right on through, especially if you wanna connect with Brian on LinkedIn.

00:37:15.364 --> 00:37:16.304
He's super active.

00:37:16.304 --> 00:37:22.976
It's how we initially came across all the great stuff that Brian is up to, and this is someone who just shows up through a place of service.

00:37:22.976 --> 00:37:27.992
So if you just want to continue learning or you wanna reach out and have a conversation with Brian, don't be shy.

00:37:27.992 --> 00:37:29.257
You'll be able to get ahold of him.

00:37:29.257 --> 00:37:31.199
So definitely check those links out down below.

00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:36.864
Otherwise, Brian, on behalf of myself and all of our listeners worldwide, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

00:37:36.864 --> 00:37:39.686
Thanks, Brian, Really appreciate the opportunity, take care.

00:37:40.831 --> 00:37:46.322
Hey, it's Brian here, and thanks for tuning in to yet another episode of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.

00:37:46.322 --> 00:37:50.360
If you haven't checked us out online, there's so much good stuff there.

00:37:50.360 --> 00:38:02.222
Check out the show's website and all the show notes that we talked about in today's episode at thewantrepreneurshowcom, and I just want to give a shout out to our amazing guests.

00:38:02.222 --> 00:38:08.380
There's a reason why we are ad free and have produced so many incredible episodes five days a week for you, and it's because our guests step up to the plate.

00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:10.432
These are not sponsored episodes.

00:38:10.432 --> 00:38:12.036
These are not infomercials.

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Our guests help us cover the costs of our productions.

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They so deeply believe in the power of getting their message out in front of you, awesome wantrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, that they contribute to help us make these productions possible.

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So thank you to not only today's guests, but all of our guests in general, and I just want to invite you check out our website because you can send us a voicemail there.

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We also have live chat.

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If you want to interact directly with me, go to thewantrepreneurshowcom.

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Initiate a live chat.

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It's for real me, and I'm excited because I'll see you, as always every Monday, wednesday, friday, saturday and Sunday here on the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.