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Hey, what is up?
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Welcome to this episode of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.
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As always, I'm your host, brian LoFermento, and if you have ever been wondering about how you can take your corporate career and turn it into an amazing business that serves other people, then today's episode is exactly for you.
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And even if you're not in that space and you're thinking how do I grow a successful business that positively serves people who have real needs, beyond just marketing and all these other things, this is someone who is helping people in the career space.
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We're all going to learn from her commitment to service, her commitment to delivering results.
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There's going to be so much that we learn from today's guest.
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Her name is Ellie Hochman.
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Ellie is a career coach and the founder of Rock and Secure.
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I'm going to talk about her company name in a little bit, because I love companies that even their name is all about action.
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The name comes from the idea that if you can learn how to rock your interview, you can secure some awesome job offers.
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Ellie's niche is helping professionals in the industrial and organizational psychology field, which is a very specific type of psychology focused on improving the workplace and using organizational strategy for business success.
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So if you've ever heard that the riches are in the niches.
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We're going to talk about how to identify and get in front of those exact people that you want to help with your business.
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I'm personally very excited about this one, so I'm not going to say anything else.
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Let's dive straight into my interview with Ellie Hokeman.
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I'm not going to say anything else, let's dive straight into my interview with Ellie Hokeman.
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All right, ellie, I'm so excited that you're here with us today.
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First things first.
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Welcome to the show.
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Thank you so much, Brian.
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I'm so excited to be here.
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Heck.
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Yes, we are excited to have you because I love the work that you do.
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I also love the energy that you put into that work.
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I feel like it shines through in the way you talk about your business, the way that it expresses even in your messaging.
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So, before we get to the business stuff, take us beyond all of that.
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Who's Ellie?
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How'd you start doing all these cool things?
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Absolutely.
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I'd love to Thank you so much for that.
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Let's start with what I was doing before.
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I was a full-time business owner, because I think that that backstory really lends itself to where we're at now.
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I started my career in recruiting.
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I was what's called a full cycle high volume recruiter, which basically just translates to I managed the hiring process from start to finish for a ton of people.
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Recruiting felt right for me at the time because I did like talking to people.
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But at times I also really hated my job because I would want to just jump through the phone, grab my candidates by the shoulders and shake them and beg them not to say what they were actively saying out loud.
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But it was through recruiting that I did get my intro into HR and opportunities to do volunteer career coaching.
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So overall I am very thankful for the experience.
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But you see, I have a math brain and I wanted to start using that part of my brain more and I thought it would be very sexy to be a data analyst.
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So my background in HR and my data analyst aspirations led me into getting a master's degree in what's called industrial and organizational psychology.
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I often refer to it as IO psychology because industrial and organizational is such a mouthful.
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And to translate that into English, you've put it perfectly it's the psychology of the workplace.
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So I get my master's degree in IO psychology.
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I start working as a business intelligence analyst.
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I do that for two years.
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The job looks great on paper, it pays well, the company is great, great team, great boss, challenging work, but no passion.
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I had no passion for it at all and it was only until one day when my work bestie had actually asked me what would you do if you won the lottery?
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And the answer came to me crystal clear.
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For most people they would say something like oh, I'd never work again or I'd go travel the world.
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But that wasn't it.
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For me it was I would teach high school and college students how to interview.
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And that response, as well as just how quickly that came to me, stuck with me for a really long time.
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So about a month later, after thinking about it over and over and over again, I'd woken up in the middle of the night with another crystal clear clarity moment, like as if someone was shaking my shoulders the way I wanted to do to my candidates and it was shouting at me follow this idea.
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So my next step was a series of Googling to identify can I replace my data analyst salary as a career coach?
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The answer was absolutely not.
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Not if you work for an employer, but if you aren't afraid of challenge, there is a way to make a decent amount of money as a career coach.
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It's to do it yourself and start your own business.
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And now some might say, well, I can't do that, maybe never mind on this whole career coaching thing.
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That's too much.
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But for me I felt electrified by the idea of it and that's why I'm so excited to be here with you, brian, because it was during those early days.
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I call them my electric days.
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I was bingeing your podcast, I was reading every book I could about starting business.
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I just remember some of those days being the most fun and energetic days of my life and they're a big part of how I got to where we're at now Now, running my business full time as a career coach, working specifically with the industrial and organizational psychology professionals Very fitting and truly living out my dream.
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It's been a ride, but a awesome, exciting and fulfilling ride, and I am just so happy now to be filling out that dream.
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Ellie, I so appreciate that overview and I so deeply appreciate the fact that the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast is also a part of your own entrepreneurial journey.
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It's so cool.
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It genuinely means the world to me, and hearing you give that overview, I know, both as a podcast host and as someone who's been on other people's podcasts, how difficult it is to answer that first broad question that so many of us ask about.
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Tell us about yourself, and so I don't usually go here this early on in a conversation, ellie, but I'm going to do it with you because you're not just our average guest, and so we always ask our guests about their zone of genius, and listeners know that this is part of our onboarding flow, and I love what you wrote there and hearing you give that overview, it just sounds like I don't know if this is the mathematical side of your brain that thinks so logically, but you're able to convey things so beautifully, ellie.
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We're talking about big things here that you help people with, but you absolutely crush it.
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I think it's a picture perfect example of how we, as entrepreneurs, can answer that question of who are you, what do you do, how did you get here?
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I want to call out your zone of genius because you wrote right there.
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While some folks call themselves a wordsmith, I like to think of myself as a speechsmith or a phrasing smith, where I can take someone's thoughts, ideas and experiences and turn that into a beautiful picture, not only using the right words but the right tonality.
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Ellie, you've got to unwrap some of that superpower for us because, even beyond just the work that you do, all of us entrepreneurs every person this isn't even an entrepreneurial conversation every single person.
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That's the challenge that we have interacting with other human beings.
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Ellie, where the heck do we start with that?
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Yeah, how do I say what I want to say while still maintaining my professionalism and positivity?
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Right, and in an interview context, that's one of the most difficult times and one of the times where you're going to face that challenge the most.
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And I started doing back when I did Instagram videos and I'm going to be doing more videos on LinkedIn here soon.
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One of the themes that I had was professional phrasing Fridays, which was how do I phrase something that isn't necessarily attractive, but I can deliver it in a way.
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How can I package it to make it look nice and sound nice and still convey the message that I want to convey without lying right?
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So let's take a great example would be if you are leaving a job because of a toxic work environment, or maybe you have a boss that is it's starting to affect your mental health, and so you want to take a step back from your organization.
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In an interview, that might be one too personal and might not be details that you're ready to say yet.
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Number two you might be afraid that that would cause them to judge you and criticize you or take you out of the running for the job that they're going for.
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So then it becomes okay what are the words and what are the phrases and what is the tonality that we're going to use.
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When would they ask us the question of why are you looking to leave your employer?
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And so what I often have my candidates do is, rather than focusing on why they're leaving, I focus on what's next for them.
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So I tell them to do.
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A future focus of rather than this is the negativity experience that I'm having right now.
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What am I going towards?
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I also heard a great piece of advice, and I wish I could say where it was from, but it was to take the negativity out of.
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Oh, actually, I do remember where it's from because the book is right on my desk it's Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara.
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He says to take the emotion out of negativity and give emotion to positivity.
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So, when we're talking about something negative in an interview context, we want to take the emotion out and focus on the facts.
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Then, when we're talking about something positive towards an interview context, we want to take the emotion out and focus on the facts.
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Then, when we're talking about something positive towards our future, we want to, like, have that energy and that excitement and a smile on our face.
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Um, that goes a lot that.
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That goes a lot further in the in the interview context.
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So that's really what it comes down to is how can we take the positivity and pull our energy and emotions towards that positivity and then we address the facts you know, or, excuse me, the negativity with facts.
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Yeah, Ellie, I'm going to call this out for listeners this early on in the conversation, because, while we may be talking about job interviews, I obviously interviews to me mean podcast interviews.
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For your everyday entrepreneur, it could mean sales calls.
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That's a form of an interview, a presentation that we make.
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All of these things we're constantly interviewing in all facets of our lives, and so, with that in mind, I love the fact that here I was asking you about words and messaging terms that we use in business.
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You went straight to emotions, positivity, negativity and how do we portray all of those things.
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It's something that all I've ever known since I started my first business at the age of 19 is how to be me.
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I'll never forget a presentation that I did.
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It was at a $15 million a year business.
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It was the first ever time I presented to a board of directors pitching them my website design services and, Ellie, I led the meeting with hey, what's up?
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Everybody?
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And I remember one of the board guys said to me afterwards he goes did you start by saying what's up?
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Was that the first word out of your mouth?
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And I said well, yeah, I don't think about it, and it's funny how many contracts we got just because all I ever knew what to do was to be me and Ellie.
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It's so clear to me, even in our interactions up to this point, that you are very you.
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You show up as you, with your energy, your excitement, your smile and all of that permeates everything that you do Talk to us about, I would imagine in the clients that you help, especially being in the niche that you are, a lot of people might downplay personality, might downplay themselves showing up as authentically them as they are.
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How's that factor into the best interview possible?
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Best?
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interview possible?
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This is a great question.
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I remember when I was going for my first real job.
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I my first technically job was working volunteer in a cafe when I was like 15.
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But the first real one where I had to interview I was about 17 years old and it was for a retail store and I remember thinking I don't need to prepare, I'm just going to be myself and they're going to love me and I'm going to be super cool and casual and they're going to love me, and telling my mom that and my mom, who was a hiring manager at the time, being like I don't know if that's a good idea.
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So much of my coaching actually comes from the things that my mom told me when I was applying to jobs or advancing in my career.
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This one stands out because it's kind of the opposite of what you were saying, because my plan was to just be myself myself and have my personality.
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But what I've found is that there is a zone of too much too casual and then too professional, and we want to land somewhere in the middle where we're still connecting with the other person but still maintaining our professionalism.
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So what I typically think about is the other person.
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So when we come in and we are in our personality and we're just showcasing our personality, like I plan to do at 17 years old, that would have been all about me.
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I would have been making everything about me and not focusing enough on the hiring manager and the person I was interviewing with.
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And so this is a mindset shift that I give to a lot of my clients it's actually not about you as much as you might think.
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It's actually about the other person.
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So this applies to interviews, this applies to sales conversations a ton how can we serve the other person?
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And if we come in and we're just trying to show off our personality and we haven't prepared and we don't ask them any questions, we're not going to be successful.
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But, on the other hand, if we're too stoic and we don't show who we truly are, then there's no trust.
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There's no trust built there.
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And that applies definitely in the interview and sales context of when you trust or when you're in a hiring situation.
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It's all just a matter of trust.
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Ellie, I'll tell you what that's a nugget bomb or a nugget of knowledge right there.
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A knowledge bomb for us, because it's one of the first ever sticky notes that I put on my monitor when I started my first business.
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It was that marketing acronym of WIIFM.
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What's in it for me and what you just revealed there?
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What works in these job interviews, I think, is the key to life is I even have this conversation a lot of times before we hit record with podcast guests as they say you know, what if I don't find the perfect words?
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What if you know?
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This story isn't exactly relevant, and the truth is, ellie, you and I didn't talk about it before we hit record, but I always tell guests listeners are thinking through their own lens, they are thinking to apply these things to their own business, and I think that that's such a key to life is understanding.
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It's really human behavior.
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At the end of it is what we're talking about.
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Whether it's life, business, job interviews, it's all the same, and so, with that in mind, I want to ask you about the niche part of your business, because it's the last time I'm going to say it in full.
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You've already given me permission to just say IO, but for listeners sake industrial and organizational psychology let's just say IO from here on out.
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Obviously, it's something that you are very in tune with.
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Where, along the way in your own entrepreneurial journey, did you say this is what I really want to specialize in?
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I want to focus on these people, I want to go find these people and I want to serve these people.
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Yeah, absolutely Quick caveat.
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I was listening to a couple of episodes before or last night just to kind of pump myself up for today and you've recently had on quite a few people who would actually be considered IO professionals based on the work that they do.
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You know, hr, strategic alignment, even Kat from Kat Co operations.
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One of the things that she mentioned in her interview is that part of what she does is making sure that your employees are happy with the operations.
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That's kind of an IO responsibility.
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So IO is actually much more prevalent than we might know.
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We just might not know what it's called, but once we inform people what it's called, we actually start to see it everywhere.
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So then let's get into where I started specializing in IO in my entrepreneurial journey.
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I really owe that to my current business coach and great friend, daniel Butero, who I will try not to talk solely about, but I have learned so much from him, and one of the things that he and his team and I worked on a lot was identifying a specific niche, and I had niched to zillennials at one point, which is Gen Z, millennials, people who fall right in between, like me, and my thinking was that's a niche.
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But then, daniel kindly, and the best way a coach can inform me that's not a niche.
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And so we started thinking about ideas for niches.
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And you know, I remember not wanting to specialize in IO or HR and my theory for that being very big limiting belief I've now come to find out was that if they're in IO or HR, they already understand how recruiting works.
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What can I potentially teach them and come to find out?
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Now that is absolutely a limiting belief because there are tons and tons of IO people who do want help and they see the value in coaching.
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They see the value in having somebody who is a strategic partner.
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So how, how, exactly how, we landed on IO?
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I can't totally remember, but I think it's also a combination of who you were and I think sometimes some of the best and easiest people to coach are the people who are a couple of years behind you, because you can tell them exactly what you did to get to where you are.
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You can relate to their struggles you did to get to where you are.
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You can relate to their struggles.
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So you know, if I, if I had had 40 years of experience in IO and I was coaching these graduates or younger professionals or maybe.
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Maybe they're not younger in age, but they're younger to the field I might be too far removed from where, where they're at and what they're going through.
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And that was another big limiting belief I had just starting my business was am I old enough to be a career coach?
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Like, I was 26 at the time when I started and I was like who's gonna trust a 26 year old with their career?
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And what I now realize is that being a little bit younger actually makes me a little bit more relatable.
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So more relatable in the sense of I what you're going through, because I just went through that very recently but also like I understand the environment you grew up in, because I grew up in that same environment, in the same generation, and so now I see my youth as a little bit of a strength instead of a instead of a weakness.
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So there's a couple limiting beliefs there that held me back from niching down and starting the business, and I think they're important for listeners to hear, because I'm sure that all of them have their own limiting beliefs that are holding them back from leaving their nine to five or finally taking the plunge and putting up their website, and working through limiting beliefs is possible and so much easier if you do it with somebody else like a coach.
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Yeah, so well said, Ellie.
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It really takes me back to one of the earliest entrepreneurial lessons that I learned, and it was through a Leonardo DiCaprio movie Catch Me If you Can which is about Frank Abagnale, who was a con artist who had a career that turned out for the better.
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He ended up helping the US government catch check fraud and a bunch of other things, but one of the cons that he did was he faked his credentials, became a professor at BYU for a summer and got the best ratings from students, and when they asked him how did you teach a psychology class?
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You don't know anything about psychology, nor do you have a degree in order to be a professor.
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He said I just had to stay one chapter ahead of them, and I think that we lose sight of that when it comes up to us.
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Creating these limiting beliefs Reminds me of that quote we're only confined by the walls that we build ourselves.
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It's so true, and, Ellie, you smashed through all of that you pointed out, though I think it's such an important part of your journey coaching.
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Not only are you a career coach, but you've worked with other coaches.
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You gave us one example in the business realm.
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Talk to me about coaching because we hear that word so much.
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I think most people don't fully understand the role of a coach and how coaching actually works.
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Yeah, the very beginning of my entrepreneurial journey, I went to a bookstore a secondhand bookstore and I was like I'm going to get every business book I can.
00:20:09.388 --> 00:20:13.921
I'm going to get every book about interviewing and it was secondhand.
00:20:13.921 --> 00:20:16.705
So luckily it was not too expensive to get that many books.
00:20:16.705 --> 00:20:17.688
I think I got like 20.
00:20:17.688 --> 00:20:36.228
I told you it was very energetic days and one of the books I got was how to be a successful career coach, and page six or so said something along the lines of you are a coach, invest in other coaches, you won't regret it.
00:20:36.228 --> 00:20:43.068
My response was okay, maybe for you, but me, I'll be fine, I can figure out anything.
00:20:43.068 --> 00:20:44.798
There's a billion YouTube videos.
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There's all these books that I just bought, there's my mom, who is absolutely a genius.
00:20:51.803 --> 00:21:04.471
But Having a designated professional who has done what you want to do and has taught others how to do it, there is no YouTube video.
00:21:04.471 --> 00:21:11.738
There is no book, there is no resource PDF file that will replace that.
00:21:11.738 --> 00:21:20.770
It is absolutely magical and I currently work with Daniel Patera, who I mentioned before, but my first business coach ever.
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Her name is Emily Jane.
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She got me started.
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I'm so grateful for my work with her and she introduced me to the power of coaching, because I no longer had to be perfect.
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I could do things messy and then she would help me perfect it, and so my perfectionist tendencies were not as in my way anymore, because I could do something and send it off to her and then she would work with me to perfect it.
00:21:51.789 --> 00:22:24.073
So I think that's one of the magical things about getting a coach in general and I see that with my clients now too, when I work with them they finally feel like they're no longer alone in their job search, and and I I find that that is why career coaching is so needed, because in school you have teachers and you have grades, you have tutors in your in your work, you have a boss, you have trainers, you have KPIs, key performance indicators, you have performance reviews, so you have support and tracking of your success.
00:22:25.054 --> 00:22:26.776
In your job search, you have none of that.
00:22:26.776 --> 00:22:37.536
You don't have anybody telling you what to do, you don't have anybody giving you real feedback, you don't have any way to track your success, I mean, unless you're doing it yourself.
00:22:37.536 --> 00:22:48.997
And so that's where a career coach can really come in and help, and I think the same thing with business coaching as well is there might be a lot of resources out there, but the actual implementation, I think, is where the magic happens.
00:22:48.997 --> 00:22:59.205
And having a partner in that implementation accountability buddy, somebody who has expertise that's really where the magic happens, yeah ellie, all right, I'm gonna keep pushing you.
00:22:59.226 --> 00:23:02.855
I want to keep going down this rabbit hole and talk to us about rock and secure.
00:23:02.855 --> 00:23:11.500
How the heck do you implement these coaching principles and what's that actual process look like for someone who wants to rock their interview so they can secure that job?
00:23:11.500 --> 00:23:12.846
What's that look like working with you?
00:23:13.948 --> 00:23:14.568
great question.
00:23:14.568 --> 00:23:20.686
So the name rock and Secure, as you introduced, it's Rock your Interview, secure Job Offer.
00:23:20.686 --> 00:23:27.931
That comes from my experience as a recruiter again wanting to just shake my candidates and tell them to stop saying what they were actively saying.
00:23:27.931 --> 00:23:38.598
And a big mistake that a lot of job seekers make is they focus way too much on their resume when it's actually the interview that gets them the job.
00:23:38.598 --> 00:23:52.131
What I hate to see is for job seekers to spend so much time and effort and energy on their resume so much time, effort and energy on applying to jobs and networking and finding the right opportunities to get into the interview and then fall apart.
00:23:53.452 --> 00:23:56.497
It really comes down to preparation.
00:23:56.497 --> 00:24:14.174
Layla Hermosi has said I might not be the smartest person in the room, I might not be the most experienced person in the room, but you can bet your bottom dollar that I will be the most prepared person in the room, and she has attributed that to a lot of her success.
00:24:14.174 --> 00:24:19.393
And when she had said that, she said it in a YouTube video that I was watching as I was getting ready one morning.
00:24:19.393 --> 00:24:24.647
I was like that's me, and that's actually exactly what I try to teach my clients too.
00:24:24.647 --> 00:24:31.672
So if we even think about how I shared my story with you when we, when we first started the podcast.
00:24:31.672 --> 00:24:33.936
I didn't come up with that off the top of my head.
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That's preparation, you know.
00:24:36.189 --> 00:24:41.253
That's that's taking time to reflect on what my story is and write it down and practice it out loud.
00:24:41.253 --> 00:24:46.670
I even recorded it in a voice memo and listened to it a couple of times so I could hear what it sounded like.
00:24:47.872 --> 00:24:58.557
So preparation is a big, big key to interview success, but a lot of people do not know how to prepare adequately.
00:24:58.557 --> 00:25:01.028
What do I need to research?
00:25:01.028 --> 00:25:01.832
What do I need to know?
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What stories do I need to prepare?
00:25:03.357 --> 00:25:11.730
And now my IO background has helped me realize that you can actually pretty much figure out what they're going to ask you by looking at the job description.
00:25:11.730 --> 00:25:28.914
And if you can pull out the skills that they're looking for and the areas of expertise that they're looking for within the job description and you prepare a story to speak to each of those skills or each of those areas of expertise, then you can pretty much answer any interview question that comes along, because you've got a story prepared that answers that question.
00:25:28.914 --> 00:25:31.404
So that's really what it comes down to.
00:25:31.766 --> 00:25:46.246
And then there is, of course, the actual practice and the actual saying it out loud, because you can fill out a worksheet of all those stories, but who's to say what that's going to sound like when you actually perform it in the interview?
00:25:46.246 --> 00:25:58.396
So actual practice out loud with another human being is another big, big part of what makes my clients successful once they go into interviews.
00:25:58.396 --> 00:26:01.186
It's through that practice it's tough.
00:26:01.186 --> 00:26:05.295
It's hard because it feels unnatural, it can feel weird.
00:26:05.295 --> 00:26:16.230
You're putting yourself out there to be criticized and give feedback, and that's where I think I do a good job of when I am providing that feedback to candidates.
00:26:16.230 --> 00:26:29.711
I think I do a good job of creating a safe space of hey, any feedback I give you is to help you and it's to help you achieve your goals and get better at interviewing, and so hopefully they see it that way too, but it doesn't mean that it's not scary.
00:26:29.711 --> 00:26:31.471
So that's really what it comes down to.
00:26:31.471 --> 00:26:34.089
It's the preparation and the delivery, delivery.
