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Hey, what is up?
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Welcome to this episode of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.
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As always, I'm your host, brian LoFermento, and if there are 10 words that are my favorite words when it comes to entrepreneurship, then those 10 words are be the change you wish to see in the world.
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And today's entrepreneur is such a shining example of that because this is someone who has taken his professional career in user experience.
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I feel like we lose the meaning of that when we shorten it to that short acronym of UX.
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We forget that it means user experience.
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This is someone who's taken all of those experiences and rolled it into a company that is making a huge positive difference in the world for people all across the world, for products that probably a lot of us take for granted.
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Let me tell you about today's entrepreneur and guest.
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His name is Frank Nas.
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Frank is a multidisciplinary designer with over 15 years of experience helping organizations design their way through complexity to take products from zero to one.
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Naturally curious and creative, frank loves to design with communities to unearth the tiny details that drive change.
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At his company, tandem design company, frank is passionate about designing colorful experiences for everyone.
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Colorful is a little bit of a spoiler alert because frank's gonna get into how much he really means the fact that he focuses on color even people who perceive color differently than you and me and when we first came across his website, we absolutely love what Tandem Design Company, what they stand for, what their brand represents and what they put into the world.
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The headline on his website is Color you Can Feel, and further down they talk about doing accessibility, done bright.
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This is an entrepreneur who's making such a positive difference in the lives of so many people, so I'm excited about this one.
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I'm not gonna say anything else.
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Let's dive straight into my interview with Frank Naas.
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All right, frank, I am so very excited that you're here with us today.
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First things first.
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Welcome to the show.
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Thank you so much for having me, Brian.
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I really appreciate it.
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Heck.
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Yes, we are so excited.
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Our whole team you've interacted with our pre-production team as well.
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We've been so excited to have you here on the air.
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You've mailed me a physical copy of your product.
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I think it's so incredible, the work that you're doing, because it goes straight to the fact that we take so many things around us for granted.
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Frank, all of that's a segue just for you to take us beyond the bio.
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Who's Frank?
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How did you start doing all this cool work?
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yeah, hi, brian, thank you so much for having me on the podcast.
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I'm a huge fan and, uh, quite smitten to be here.
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So let me just first, uh, thank you and your whole team.
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Uh, laura was great.
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Um, my name is Frank and I'm a designer, and I've been a designer in Silicon Valley for roughly 15 years, solving problems at scale via design.
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Lately, my latest kind of adventure has taken me to create products that provide colorful experiences for everybody.
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And here's a little bit.
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But there's a little bit of a twist, because many of my users are actually legally blind, and that's why I actually founded Tandem Design Company or Tandem Design Co.
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C-o, and the reason is we wanted to create meaningful connections and basically help people through thoughtful design, through thoughtful design, and part of that is bringing the best practices from Silicon Valley design to kind of products and to a very underserved community to make sure that nobody's left behind.
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And I'm really guided by a sense of general curiosity, creativity and community.
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So for me, I believe that, you know, even though we are all different and we want to respect those differences as much as possible, we all have this fundamental and human need to belong, and for me that's so powerful and that's something that I think has been a source of inspiration for me as a designer with Tandem Design Company, of inspiration for me as a designer with Tandem Design Company.
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And you know what's great is that design is not just about solving problems.
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I think great design is about affirming who we are and celebrating our shared humanity, as well as being as simple as humanly possible, and so that's why we make the products that we make, which is we make sticky notes that have Braille on them.
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So I'm super excited and this is what that looks like.
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So there you go.
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Yes, I love that overview, frank.
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What I really appreciate, even just in that overview the way that you talk about your work.
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It really is impactful.
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It's about the people that you serve, the communities that you serve and probably a lot of people.
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This is an overlooked you and I talked, even off air, before we hit record together today.
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We talked about underserved communities and all their different ways that we can measure underserved, or all the different challenges that each different community faces.
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In the case of Tandem Design Company, probably a lot of people don't realize this is a stat from your about page that I really appreciate, frank.
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Over 7 million individuals in the United States are visually impaired or have low vision, and there's a quote from you on your website that says we live in a sighted world.
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Talk to me about that understanding, the appreciation, the dedication and the commitment that you have to saying, hey, hold on, there's this entire community.
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We're not talking about a small community either, frank.
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I really want to emphasize the impact of your work because it is a very large community.
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Talk to us about that understanding and appreciation that started you to go down this path of, I want to say, inventing I wonder if you use that word inventing or creating products that serve them word, inventing or creating products that serve them.
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Yeah, um, okay, so we're gonna like zooming out right, like let's just take a big zoom out, and I know that this particular audience, which is entrepreneurially focused, um, I'll kind of just gear a little bit or ground a little bit of um those ideas within the workplace setting right because, because we're something we're all familiar with.
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And so the question that I really think about is why does accessibility matter in the workplace?
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And so we talked about for over 7 million Americans with visual impairments.
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You know, when you look at the statistics, only 44% of those people are employed, compared to 79% of people without disabilities, and those are adult American males, or adult Americans, I should say, of working age.
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So what that shows me is that some of these barriers that people are encountering, some of these barriers that people are encountering specifically people with disabilities, you know, that gap kind of highlights that, and for me, what I think about is I think that when those numbers are so big, some of those barriers are very real.
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That's 7 million people that are people that I interact with regularly through my user base, that's 7 million individual stories, and that, to me, is so powerful.
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And these barriers, they show up as stigmas within the workplace.
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They might show up as an expectation or an inaccessible tool or a workplace culture that's really missing out on.
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You know this, you know a group of people that have disabilities, and so, for me, I think, I think about that and I think about what is step one and that problem.
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Uh, really, accessibility is like foundational to that.
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Without access, how are we asking people to meaningfully participate and fully participate?
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And so that was a huge challenge that I saw, and it comes back to some of these like really interesting experiences and stories that I've had when it comes to accessibility.
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But I'll kind of tell you a quick story.
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And so there's something that's called curb cuts.
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It's something that we're all familiar with, and curb cuts are those transitions from, basically, the sidewalk to the street.
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We all know what they are, but initially those were designed for wheelchair users.
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But what ended up happening with curb cuts and it's known as the curb cut effect, is that it started benefiting everybody People with strollers, or people that are skateboarders, bicyclists, rollerbladers, more skaters, I should say, you know, people carrying groceries All of these people are, you know, helped by these curb cuts.
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So what that demonstrates is this demonstrates this really interesting phenomenon which is known as the curb cut effect, which is that when you take into account and you design for people with disabilities, those benefits, they actually ripple out and they benefit actually everybody, and so that's such an exciting opportunity, I think, as a designer, and design is part of our DNA at Tandem Design Company, so you know, that's kind of the story behind that.
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Yeah, frank gosh, I love that, especially because you just brought something that's so real that, again, so much of I feel like our conversation comes to the fact that we take a lot of things for granted in life.
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I mean, we're not just talking about business or accessibility.
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We take a lot of things for granted, and the curb cut effect is something that's so real that, you're right, has benefited all of us and we all feel that every single day.
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I thought my grandmother lived in New York City until she passed away at age 102.
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And so those curb cuts, yeah, made her walkable life possible, even in the later stages of her career or of her life, and so these are important considerations that just make life better.
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And that's why, frank, I wanna call myself out, because I actually do wanna change the verb that I use.
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I said that you invent, but I feel like it missed the mark for what Tandem Design Company is all about, because I'm actually just gonna steal the verbiage that you have on your website, which is co-designing the future.
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It's actually less about inventing from my perspective than it is about co-designing.
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And I just wanna add one more thing, frank, and then I want you to talk about this, because I feel like, at a really simple level in business we always talk about being customer-centric but you actually practice it because your customers help design the solutions that you're bringing to the world.
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Please talk to us about that co-designing philosophy and approach.
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Yeah, that's an excellent segue and, brian, you're a total pro.
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So when I think about a tandem design company, we don't design for people, we design with the communities that we serve, and there is like there's such an interesting distinction there and it's so important to think about that and kind of how that manifested Right.
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So let's talk about that.
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You know, as from day one, we basically partnered with Lighthouse SF, and Lighthouse SF is a nonprofit that serves the low vision and visually impaired communities here in San Francisco, california, where I live, and their insights, feedback and lived experiences were really something that shaped kind of everything.
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It kind of permeated into the design process, it permeated into the product, obviously, and that was so amazing because that partnership and that close engagement demonstrates like a really fundamental truth.
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I think that as a designer, as a professional designer, I I always think about it in my own expertise and kind of humbling myself is that design doesn't happen from the outside in, it happens with communities, it happens through engagement, it's about actively listening and engaging and basically thinking about, you know, learning and letting the experiences of other people guide us, and I think for a lot of companies, for a lot of people, that that can be a really scary feeling right, like that takes us out of our control zone.
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It takes us out of you know.
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We're no longer driving the ship, so to speak.
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We're driving it with people right, or we're following in tandem.
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Actually, I should say sometimes they lead, sometimes we lead, but that's why inclusivity is at the heart of everything that we do.
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And when I think about co-creating with communities, the results are so interesting because they go beyond access, which is kind of like that step one, and you start creating products that are more about belonging, and for me that's that's kind of that aspirational.
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You know essence of a product that changes you, whether you're sighted or visually impaired or low vision or colorblind, or you know you're working with somebody who is low vision or visually impaired.
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Um, I think that from my perspective, you know it's about that ethos and products that celebrate those ethos, and we're really happy to be able to bring those products to market.
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And we take that quite seriously.
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Yeah, I will say, frank, as someone who has held your product and I'm so appreciative of you mailing one of your products out to me I'll say that not only is it the ethos because, frank, as someone who hosts a business podcast, I talk to entrepreneurs every single day and I feel like a lot of people.
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It's easy for them to say what their ethos is.
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It's easy for them to articulate it.
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Very few companies really execute at such deep of a level that the second I took your product out of the packaging, I was like every single thing is intentional, the way that your logo has Braille on top of it.
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Obviously, your product is all about color.
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You can feel all the different sticky notes the red one, the yellow one, they all have the different Braille on that and everything.
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It's not just the product, it's the packaging, it's the way that you do it.
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I want to ask you get inside the mind of a founder.
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I want to understand.
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You have that ethos and it's clear that you've adopted that so much.
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What does that look like when it comes to the execution, the implementation, that intentionality that you've put into all the different parts of your business?
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Is it a checklist?
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I know that you worked in user experience, so I'm really curious to get that Silicon Valley background from you.
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Is it really good processes?
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Is it external counsel?
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I'd love to hear about how you nail that execution of it.
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That is a really interesting question and so I think that's kind of broad right.
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I think for me that's kind of really broad, and so I can kind of speak to some really interesting moments that we had.
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So when it comes to like bringing people directly into the design process, that can be a little bit messy and oftentimes we get a lot of stuff wrong, and so one of the things that we did early on like I talked about this partnership with Lighthouse SF is that we were bringing I was prototyping things and showing it to them, and a lot of the times they didn't know what, ultimately, the final form would look like or kind of what we were doing.
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They were just interacting with these pieces of paper and I was kind of asking them random questions, right, or questions about their experiences with color, asking them random questions, right, or questions about their experiences with color, and so for somebody that's non-sighted, you know they were the most fascinating questions.
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Some of the most fascinating interviews that I've ever had is talking about color with people who experience it a little bit differently than me, and I think, as a designer, designing products for people who don't experience color, but then they can still feel that color, that was just truly an eye-opening experience.
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But in one example is that you know you get a lot of stuff wrong and you have to iterate and you have to be able to iterate quickly.
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And there's one example where I was working with fernando and fernando was, uh, he's kind of a tech accessibility specialist at lighthouse and so he was going through everything.
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He's like, hey, I see that you use this type of braille in your, in these descriptions.
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He said, why are you using this type of braille?
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And I said, um, I didn't know that there was another type of braille in your, in these descriptions.
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He said why are you using this type of braille?
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And I said, um, I didn't know that there was another type of braille.
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And he's like, yeah, you've got to use this other braille.
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This is not the right way to do it, and so I mean it.
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The product is really a culmination of just a lot of, like, iteration and a lot of bringing them directly into the process so that they could actually use the product, tell, tell me what wasn't working for them, and then going from there and then continuing to refine it.
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So that was kind of how we bring them in.
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There really was no division between that.
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I mean they had really more say than anyone.
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So it's really interesting it's me executing against that vision and executing with their insights, feedback and bringing their lived experiences into that product because really, what I heard in that answer is the execution comes from not getting it right.
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Here I am praising you for your packaging, your execution, and what I'm actually hearing from you is no, you just started and then you put it in the hands of real-life people who you wanna serve and you let them guide that, and I love even when you use tandem as the verb there about sometimes we do it in step, sometimes one is leading the other.
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I think that it's such an important approach for all of us across all of our businesses, which leads me to something that I'm so curious about, because I think one thing that's difficult for all of us as people, and especially as entrepreneurs, is expectations.
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We have expectations of ourselves.
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We have expectations of our work being at such a high quality that we all hope for.
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We have expectations of the results that we're going to get when we start our businesses.
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So, frank, I want to put you on the spot in front of a worldwide audience of entrepreneurs and ask you about those expectations, because it's so clear to me that you have an iterative mindset, and that's probably very healthy for a designer.
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It probably is one of your big advantages.
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So it seems to me, like you understand that every single step is one step of a larger process.
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How have those expectations evolved?
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When you first started, what did you think Tandem Design Company was going to be?
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Now, where you're at in your journey, how has that shifted?
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And then also as an entrepreneur.
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I'm just gonna load it up for you to go into detail for this stuff.
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As an entrepreneur, how have your expectations had to shift, starting your own business after such a really cool career that you've had?
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Wow, that is such a great question.
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Oh, wow.
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I think that when I think about it right, like I feel like deeply that this product is really about shifting other people's expectations and it's about changing other people's attitudes and it's about fostering collaboration in new and exciting ways with a group of people that previously may not have been able to participate or use the product.
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And so I think that my expectations were hey, we're going to release this product, we have a really good feeling about this, and can we get to market viability this?
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And can we get to market viability Right, Can we get to a viable product?
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And I think that was the first kind of big hurdle and big expectation that I had.
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But once we got kind of over that hump and we started to see that, hey, this is actually a viable product, specifically in, you know, within the workplace or if you're creating a disability-inclusive workspace or if you're doing K-12 education, it really shines in those areas.
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I didn't necessarily have those expectations.
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The brand is really very much kind of a sticky note in that we're kind of a platform for big ideas and we think that some of these ideas that people are going to be using our products on, those are going to change attitudes, they're going to change expectations, they're going to invite new possibilities.
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So for me, I think my expectations, I'm still very much wait and see.
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I'm still very much looking at how people are using this and I discovered these really interesting use cases all the time, where a couple, one person was sighted and the other one was visually impaired, was telling me, hey, we use the red for the dishes are dirty and the green for the dishes are clean.
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And I had never in like my wildest imagination, I had never thought about that specific use case, had never occurred to me, nor would it, I think.
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And I don't have a dishwasher, so I am the dishwasher.
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So I think that it's so interesting to see what those effects are.
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And I'm still waiting.
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I'm really still waiting to see and hear all these stories that keep coming in.
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Every week I get some new stories about how people experience this product and how it's personally affected them.
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Yeah, I love that, frank.
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You are such a talented storyteller and it's so at the root of what you do.
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And I would argue for people who are saying, well, frank's so great at telling stories, I'll just say, as someone who gets to interview people for a living, part of it, frank, is that you really care about those stories, you take the time to hear them because your company and your product exists for those stories, for the people's lives to change, and it's so cool to see that in action.
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I want to go really high level here because it's something that you've mentioned a few times about the Lighthouse San Francisco partnership that you have, and I love the case study that you are so transparent when it comes to sharing it, not only in today's conversation but on your website.
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People can read about that partnership.
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The challenge is written right there at the top of that case study, and the challenge, as you've articulated it, is why does color matter if your customers are visually impaired?
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So we hear these stories.
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What I imagine in hearing you even talk about the mechanism of sticky notes and the possibilities that they open up, as a chronic sticky note user, you've absolutely nailed it, frank.
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I've got sticky notes all over my monitor.
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With that in mind, what are those possibilities that you see, knowing that you're already making a difference?
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Is it about product adoption of what you've already launched into the world?
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Are there events on the horizon for you?
00:23:13.781 --> 00:23:17.396
How are you going to deepen that impact that you make inside of the community?
00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:22.066
Oh, that's such a great question.
00:23:22.066 --> 00:23:26.097
I think that from a business perspective.
00:23:26.097 --> 00:23:28.269
So let's tackle the business perspective first.
00:23:28.269 --> 00:23:34.561
I think, from a business perspective, what we're trying to do is create something that's sustainable and that helps a lot of people.
00:23:34.561 --> 00:23:56.402
And whenever I see my sticky notes in classrooms, it tugs at me is that throughout the testing, the product testing, I heard that this I wish my kids have this.
00:23:56.402 --> 00:23:59.669
If I had a blanket, I would give this to them, and those experiences are so moving for me.
00:23:59.669 --> 00:24:05.170
So I really, I really, really, really have to kind of get back to that.
00:24:05.269 --> 00:24:06.994
So where does growth happen?
00:24:06.994 --> 00:24:09.759
I think we want to be sustainable as a business.
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:17.521
We really want to focus on a couple of core segments, which include kind of education, especially K through 12.
00:24:17.521 --> 00:24:20.083
Sped teachers absolutely love us.
00:24:20.083 --> 00:24:23.974
We will also want to focus on growing adoption in the workplace.
00:24:24.236 --> 00:24:50.711
So if you are a team that is designing, let's say, a digital product, kind of my former life, a digital product and that product is touching a billion people and let's say, one fourth of the adult population has a disability, then you know that's that's 250, 250 million people who you know you need to think about, and I think that for the people that are creating some of these products.
00:24:50.680 --> 00:25:48.565
You know you need to think about and I think that for the people that are creating some of these products, you know, having that physical reminder, you know, if you're sighted, that hey, people, actually people experience the world differently than I do and every time you interact with that, every time you, you know, touch, you know and it's designed in a way where you kind of do have to interact with the braille to kind of peel it off um, that that experience kind of changes you as a sighted person and it changes your expectations of and changes some attitudes too, and so I think that this product can, can grow lot, and part of our success metrics is how that shifts culture and how we are inviting people into new conversations, inviting people to participate in new ways through a very simple tool that we all have.
00:25:49.558 --> 00:26:04.304
Everyone listening right now probably has some sticky notes within reach and how do we take a tool, a beloved tool that we all know and love, and just turn it into a beacon of inclusivity and accessibility?
00:26:04.304 --> 00:26:08.557
And that's growth to me, that's, that's.
00:26:08.557 --> 00:26:16.045
That's such a it's so poetic and it's so meaningful and it's so deep and you think, oh, you just put braille on a sticky note, it's.
00:26:16.045 --> 00:26:18.176
It's a lot deeper than that, I think.
00:26:18.176 --> 00:26:23.367
And and so the why is is really why people buy our product.
00:26:24.295 --> 00:26:43.625
Yes, frank, in over a thousand episodes, that right there is one of my favorite answers we've ever had here on the air, and it's because my word for the year I'm definitely looking at things through a biased lens this year, because my word for the year is bigger and I think that we all need to dream bigger, think bigger, do bigger things and impact bigger communities.
00:26:43.625 --> 00:27:13.281
And so, with that in mind, frank, if the question that a potential entrepreneur or an existing entrepreneur is asking themselves can my company, can my product or service reshape the way that we have conversations in society and in culture, frank, you are such a clear example of the answer being yes, it's your product that here you and I are on the air in front of people in over 150 countries around the world having this conversation because of what you've designed and launched into the marketplace.
00:27:13.281 --> 00:27:16.119
So I think that that's a huge kudos to the work that you're doing.
00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:24.040
Time's flying by and I've had this one word on my whiteboard that I said I need to ask Frank about while we're together on the air, and that is connection.
00:27:24.194 --> 00:27:29.563
I know that connection is part of the secret sauce of how you do all these things and why you do all these things.
00:27:29.563 --> 00:27:49.467
Where my head goes as a fellow entrepreneur is, I know that you not only have to connect with people, you not only are part of the community that you serve and you get in there and design with them, but you also are figuring out logistics, you're figuring out manufacturing, you're figuring out marketing and sales and PR and so many other things.
00:27:49.467 --> 00:27:52.640
Frank, so talk to us about that importance of connection.
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:57.999
How do you put it into your week, your workflows, how do you manage those connections?
00:27:57.999 --> 00:28:05.439
I want to hear because it's so clear from the outside, looking in even before we got today, how deeply ingrained that is in the way that you operate.
00:28:07.681 --> 00:28:09.343
Yeah, connection.
00:28:09.343 --> 00:28:18.352
I think for a brand that is a brand like us, it is very much about connection.
00:28:18.352 --> 00:28:28.670
And, you know, I think about the fact that when you think about disability, it really matters a lot.
00:28:28.670 --> 00:28:29.739
And why does it matter?
00:28:29.739 --> 00:28:45.482
It matters because throughout our lifetimes we will all likely experience changes in our abilities, whether those are mental or physical, right.
00:28:45.482 --> 00:28:54.584
And so I think, when you kind of take that into account, that you're talking about a group of people like one out of four American adults.
00:28:54.584 --> 00:28:58.029
This is a large, this is a lot of people.
00:28:58.029 --> 00:29:13.675
And those communities, specifically the disabled communities, are some of the strongest, most amazing communities I've ever seen, communities I've ever seen.
00:29:13.695 --> 00:29:16.481
And I think that when I think of connection, it's redefined what that meant for me.
00:29:16.481 --> 00:29:38.984
You know, as a person, and what I've seen is I've seen incredible strength and I've seen incredible resilience, and there's been days when I myself, as an entrepreneur, I know we've all had those where you're just getting kicked right, you're just getting like, oh man, this is a rough day, right, you know kind of waiting for the shoe to drop a little bit.
00:29:38.984 --> 00:29:54.661
But you know we've all had those days where kind of everything goes wrong and another insurmountable or seemingly insurmountable obstacle comes, and I think that that connection, especially that connection to the community, is really what keeps me going.
00:29:54.661 --> 00:30:01.824
And like the same time I'll get an email from somebody about, or somebody will post something on Instagram.
00:30:01.824 --> 00:30:04.961
You know, we get so much love on Instagram.
00:30:04.961 --> 00:30:09.878
It's great, and we kind of have a dialogue with the community and we're also posting stuff too.
00:30:10.339 --> 00:30:26.305
So I think that connection and that brand kind of that brand kind of that inclusion being kind of seeping through and being part of our DNA, that connection is it's very real and it's tangible.
00:30:26.305 --> 00:31:11.846
And I think it's amazing, I think it's, I think it's like probably kind of part of our secret weapon that not only are we connected to the, to our community, but then we're also fostering all these other connections that are happening at the same time where our community is going and interacting within their workplace or within their schools, and especially when you know, I have examples from adaptive art teachers who are using the product within their classroom, other teachers who are using it within SPED, and yeah, it's just kind of a really amazing thing and we embrace it, we embrace, we embrace it 100 yeah, I love those insights.
00:31:11.906 --> 00:31:31.728
Frank, I will say that before you and I got together here today, I already knew that you inspire others in what you do and how you do it, but today you've really given us so many valuable insights and inspired us by how you think as well, and I think that that's so important for us to get inside the mind of incredible fellow entrepreneurs like yourself, frank, so I'm so appreciative of that.
00:31:31.728 --> 00:31:50.226
I have no idea how you're going to answer this last question, because it's super broad, so you can take in any direction that you want, and that is what's your best piece of advice Knowing that we're being listened to by entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs at all different stages of their own growth journeys and, as you pointed out, we all have those days where it just feels like holy cow.
00:31:50.226 --> 00:31:51.548
How am I going to overcome this?
00:31:51.548 --> 00:31:53.150
You are a fellow entrepreneur.
00:32:01.538 --> 00:32:07.250
So, frank, with all of your experiences and you being in your own journey as well, what's that one piece of advice that you want to leave our listeners with?
00:32:07.250 --> 00:32:07.871
Okay, that's really so okay.
00:32:07.871 --> 00:32:28.645
So I think I want to speak, I want to use this opportunity because I think this is a great opportunity, and what I want to say is that disability is such an amazing space to work in and I think that my feeling is that this space has so much potential and so much room, and it's a completely underserved community, in my opinion.
00:32:28.645 --> 00:32:53.248
And I think about some of these thinking about thinking very deeply about your product and for us, we think about belonging, and for us, belonging is kind of like a verb that we know that access, like access to materials, is when building a kind of a culture of inclusion is really important.
00:32:53.248 --> 00:32:58.323
And think about how your products change lives.
00:32:58.323 --> 00:32:59.845
How do they break barriers?
00:32:59.845 --> 00:33:21.648
How can you create, you know, universally designed experiences that work across modalities and that invite people to invite people to have new possibilities and kind of expand their what's possible for them and whatever they thought was possible?
00:33:21.648 --> 00:33:30.124
And and I think that when we think about it fundamentally, we're thinking about access, participation and connection.
00:33:30.124 --> 00:33:41.878
Right, and I wanted to make it really effortless to stick accessibility everywhere right, these kind of little shining beacons of inclusiveness.
00:33:41.878 --> 00:33:46.026
And how do we get into people's daily routine?
