934: Harnessing CONFLICT, PEACE, and a culture of resolutions for team success w/ John Ford

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Hey, what is up?

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Welcome to this episode of the Entrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.

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As always, I'm your host, brian LoFermento.

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In today's episode, we are going to be talking about two things that, gosh, do I think we need more of in the world of entrepreneurship, but especially in the world, and that is peace and conflict.

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And ideally, conflict and peace.

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Those are really important things, even if you are a solopreneur thinking to yourself well, brian, I don't have conflict in my business.

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Well, conflict is all around us.

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Societally, when we deal with our clients and our customers, conflict doesn't have to be a bad thing.

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But ultimately, the end goal of conflict is communication and peace.

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And so today's guest is one of the most interesting men in the world.

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That's not a moniker that I threw out there often it's maybe the third time in 900 plus episodes but this is someone who has really brought so much of his background into the work that he does today, and it's for sure his perspective shapes the work that he does and shares with so many people.

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So let me tell you about today's guest and entrepreneur.

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His name is John Ford.

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John is originally from South Africa, which immediately means he's got the coolest accent on today's episode.

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He has a background in law from the University of Cape Town and he began his career practicing law in Namibia.

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His experiences, including human rights work during the UN-led Resolution 435 peace process and interactions with the Sand People, also known as the Bushmen, in the Kalahari Desert, profoundly shaped his approach to conflict resolution.

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For the past 30 years in the good old United States of America, john has specialized in workplace mediation and soft skills training.

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He's the creator of the empathy set and the talking sticks, which we'll talk about today.

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He's just got such cool ways to bring this value and these methodologies to people so that they can actually implement it in their lives.

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Those are tools designed to simplify and enhance communication.

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He also teaches at the UC Law in San Francisco.

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He's also taught at Creighton University, jfk University and Golden Gate University.

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He's the author of Peace at Work, the HR Manager's Guide to Workplace Mediation.

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This is someone who we're all going to learn so much from today, so I'm not going to say anything else.

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Let's dive straight into my interview with John Ford.

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All right, john, you are here.

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You've got a lot to live up to.

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Welcome to the show.

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Hey, brian, great to be here with you.

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Heck, yes, so I've tooted your horn, I really don't say it very frequently One of the most interesting men.

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I think.

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You've got such an incredible background and I love how it all seemingly has coalesced into what you do today and how you help so many other people.

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But take us beyond that bio.

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Who's John?

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How'd you start doing all these amazing things?

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As you said, brian, I was born in South Africa, which sadly has the legacy of apartheid as its moniker, that's in its background.

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So I was born in a country that was in conflict and I was eager to do something positive about it and ultimately, after studying law, I moved up to Namibia where I practiced.

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But what I kept finding was that I suppose my natural inclination was towards peacemaking.

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In other words, I would always try to get people to work things out together themselves, and that's essentially what I started doing there.

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I hadn't trained as a mediator and it was only when I got to the United States in 96 that I discovered there was actually a formal field of mediation that I could get involved in.

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So I trained as a mediator and I suppose in some ways never looked back.

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I'll just say it wasn't easy because coming to the United States I didn't have a day job to rely on.

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I didn't have a network of people to pull on.

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I was essentially here with my wife doing my best to make it.

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But I am proud to say that I eventually did make it, as you mentioned, as a workplace mediator, as a trainer, as a coach, and have gone beyond that and what I'm really inspired by.

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More than anything, brian is helping give people the tools to be able to address the conflicts that they encounter themselves Because, as you mentioned, no one really likes conflict, but one of the things I think we all know is that conflict is inevitable.

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So if you are in business, whether it's with your staff, whether it's with your vendors, sometimes even with your clients, you want to be able to address whatever conflicts do emerge and look for that opportunity of creating a win-win between you and them.

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Yeah, john, I'll tell you what you and I were talking off air before we hit record about a lot of good things, but part of it is obviously you are an immigrant to this country.

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I come from an immigrant family here to the United States, and so for me, language has always been something that I've been obsessed with.

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My mom's fifth language is English, and with that I place a lot of meaning on words and the way that we articulate things and the way we express things, and it's even prevalent in the teaser to today's episode, right at the top, where I talked about peace and conflict.

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And I want to jump right into these definitions with you, john, because I want to make it clear I don't view conflict as the opposite of peace, in the same way that I don't view failure as the opposite of success.

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I think these are inevitable ingredients on the road to these outcomes that we're looking for.

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Talk to us about how peace and conflict play together, how you define conflict and what this stuff's all about that we're talking about today.

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Such important topics because, you know, the reality is we live in a world full of conflict and I think it gets pretty depressing at times.

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It feels helpless, we feel hopeless.

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Are we ever going to be able to move beyond that?

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But, as you point out, peace is not the absence of conflict.

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In other words, in our relationships, when we're at peace, it doesn't mean that there aren't differences or perceived misunderstandings that are occurring.

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A lot of the time our conflict arises from simple miscommunication.

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And then the inevitable reality that we live in a world where we all need access to resources.

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So we all, as humans, have needs, and it's in the jostling between humans, as we try to get our needs met, that our conflicts arise.

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But rather than seeing them as a problem, I always try to frame conflict as an opportunity for clarity, for change, for insight and for growth.

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So, yes, we don't like conflict, but conflict is inevitable.

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So the best thing we can do is upskill, develop our capacity to deal with the inevitable conflict that comes along, so that, rather than it being a wasted opportunity, we actually harness that energy and move our agenda along.

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Yeah, really well said.

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It's the opportunity for clarity A really big statement there from you, John, really early on in our conversation today and I would argue it only is that opportunity.

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We can only take advantage of that opportunity if we proactively go after it.

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So what does this recipe look like?

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What can we inject into the chaos, of these turmoil and the conflict that we're talking about today?

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What are those ingredients that turn that into the opportunities and into the goals that we're looking to achieve?

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Well, I think one of the biggest things is that willingness to communicate.

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As you mentioned, I spent time working with the San and the Kalahari.

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They're hunter-gatherers living still a somewhat nomadic life and for them getting along is not an option.

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They really need to be harmonious, they need to have their peace, but they do, from time to have, inevitably, they do have their conflicts and they know that not speaking is essentially a form of wrongdoing, so they always want to engage.

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Outspeaking is essentially a form of wrongdoing, so they always want to engage.

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So I'd say the first thing that we need to overcome is that aversion to conflict, that the way in which we ignore the inevitable conflicts that are surfacing and communicate about them.

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And one of the earliest ways that we know that a conflict is brewing is if we pay attention to our emotional landscape, because we get the early clues of a conflict in how we're seeing and how we're feeling.

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So we see that colleague, that maybe we had a little bit of a scuffle in the meeting yesterday walking down the corridor, instead of being happy to see them, we sort of are unhappy.

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Maybe there's that reminder, as I say, of that sort of that bruise that we received the day before.

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When we ignore that and we think I'm going to ignore that that's when we're playing with fire.

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So I'd say one of the biggest things we want to do when it comes to conflict resolution is have the courage to speak up, not to think that ignoring it or suppressing it is actually going to help, but it's to take that opportunity, whenever we get it, to speak up.

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But then it's also how do we go about speaking up?

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Because so often the way we go about speaking up actually makes the situation worse.

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Like if someone interrupts me, I say to them you're rude, you never listen to me.

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Well, if I speak to them like that, chances are they're not going to change their behavior.

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But if I can find a more palatable, more productive way of expressing myself so that they can hear both how I'm feeling and what I'm needing and make a simple request, there's a chance that we can do something.

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But in sum, brian, I'd say speaking up is so, so important.

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Recognizing our early feelings that are giving us those early clues that something is going on also are so important.

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And generally, by the time that we're shouting at one another or, even worse, slamming doors and, I'd say even worse, using violence, we know that we've missed opportunities, so the opportunities with conflict resolution often lie early on, when we're just paying attention to the more subtle emotions that we're feeling in relation to someone else.

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Yeah, john, I love that overview, especially because I feel like you're introducing us to so many different considerations and sides of this dance that we have to do to arrive together at peace, which is the ultimate goal.

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And when I think about real life scenarios where we see this dance in action, I can't help but think about the negotiating process.

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It's something that all of us, as entrepreneurs, we can't help it.

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We all negotiate in our sales pitches with potential clients in every step of the way.

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And so, thinking about that, and I think about conflicting desires, for example, when we're in a sales negotiation, well, I know what the other person wants.

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They want to pay as little as possible.

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I want to make as much as possible.

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We have some shared goals and our desired outcomes, but how do we even start to come to the table and find an agreement that everyone's going to be happy with in a world where there are some conflicting desires and wants?

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I mean, that is the reality of what we're all constantly doing.

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All the time, as some folks point out, we negotiate from the cradle to the grave.

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In other words, we're always trying to get our needs met and I think understanding that, in other words, that negotiation is really the subject of how do we all go about getting our needs met, is super helpful.

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But at a practical level, as you point out, it's not always true that our needs lead to what we sometimes refer to as a win-win situation.

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So just very quickly, to give you the classic story from the field of conflict resolution, it's two children fighting over an orange.

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Generally we would sort of look at that as a conflict because we would assume that both want the flesh of the orange.

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But let's imagine that the one wants to make a cake and they need the zest of the orange, other words, they need the peel and the other one wants the flesh.

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Well then you have the making of what we call a win-win solution, in other words, where my needs and your needs are complementary and we can work out.

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Work out something nice, but generally in life it's more like what you're describing, brian.

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I want to pay as little as possible and you want me to pay as much as possible, and it's in those circumstances that, when I'm teaching my class at UC Law in San Francisco, we talk about the two key conversations we want to have in a negotiation.

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One is about fairness or standards.

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So the classic and again, this is not rocket science for most people, but if you're buying a secondhand motor vehicle, you're probably going to look at the Kelly Blue Book as a reference point as to what's fair.

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So that's generally what we do when we get stuck.

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We look to external reference points that guide us as to what other humans have done and give us a sense of fairness in those circumstances.

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And then the other key conversation we typically want to have is ask people well, what are you going to do if we don't reach an agreement today?

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If you've got something better away from the table, I would encourage you to take it, but a lot of the time people have pipe dreams away from the table and what they're being offered at the table, although it may not feel as nice or as good as they would like it to be.

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But it's better than chasing after that proverbial, those proverbial two birds in the bush.

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Yeah, I'll tell you what.

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As a Libra and I'm a quintessential Libra where fairness and equality and justice is such an important part for me, as long as you can make me feel like we've arrived at a fair, whatever fair is measured in that moment.

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That's something that guides me in all of these and it's not just about my own needs, but part of it, john, is I'm realizing, as not only a Libra but as an extreme extrovert, part of what I value in any conflict or negotiations is that human connection.

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And I can tell even before you and I hit record here today that you love that building rapport.

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You love connecting as humans and hearing the way you talk about this, it just seems like maybe it's the legal background in you, but you have the ability to take an objective view at a lot of these situations and of course, it's easier said than done and in the heat of the moment, feelings and emotions and all sorts of things play into it.

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But with that in mind, talk to us about that importance of establishing rapport, because we could pick on we're not going to go into the political realm today, but we can pick on that of how both sides convince the others that you know.

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People on the other side of the aisle have all these bad views, but at the end of the day, we're all people, so I'd love for you to talk to us about the importance of rapport and being humans together.

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Yeah, that is so key, Brian is how we connect with one another.

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So let's start off with just say us if we're in that role of the mediator where we're trying to help two people out.

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And one thing I want to quickly say is I think a lot of times people discount how often they're in that role of the mediator.

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In other words, a lot of the time we're helping two people to work something out without telling them what to do.

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That's, to me, is my very simple definition of mediation.

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But for us to be effective at that, other words, to be that what I call that effective process guide but not the decision maker we need to have rapport, and rapport essentially tells us that the person or the persons trust us and they have confidence in us.

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So when those two elements are in place, then they are amenable and open to our guidance.

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Our guidance and that can apply, as I say, it certainly applies when we're in the role of the mediator we want to, as I like to say, I want to have rapport with party A and I want to have rapport with party B, and if I have the rapport with the both of them, then I can guide them towards some kind of a resolution, but the same applies in our one-on-one interpersonal conversations with one another.

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The more rapport we have with one another, the more connection we have.

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When people feel that they trust us, that tells us that they're feeling safe in our hands.

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I always point out there's two aspects to trust.

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There's the reliability, in other words, I can trust you to do something.

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But then, probably the more important one, when it comes to conflict resolution, trust means that the person feels safe.

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They can be vulnerable with me and generally to work things out, people need to be vulnerable.

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They need to reveal things that they've been shielding and holding back, and when they can do that, that's when we start moving towards a resolution.

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And another thing you touched on, brian, that I'll just quickly point to, which is, as the mediator, we're always honoring the perspectives of all involved.

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And, again, the skill we can use in our interpersonal situations is recognizing that everyone's got a point of view.

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I always like reminding people that, no matter what's going on with your nemesis, for example, they've got feelings and needs about whatever the subject at hand that you're arguing about, and so do you.

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And the more that we can acknowledge the reality and validate the reality of these different perspectives, the more likely we can start getting that movement towards some kind of a resolution.

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Yeah, and I'll tell you what.

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Obviously, in today's political climate, this conversation is one that I wish we were not just having within entrepreneurial circles, but I think it's a message we need to get out to the entire world, because what I'm really hearing, john, is it's an attitude, it's an approach I'm going to use it business terms.

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It's a culture that we want to create inside of all of our businesses.

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Because hearing you talk about the importance of trust, for example, sure, if I get into an argument with one of my best friends because that person has that importance in my life, we will work through it.

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There's not even a single question about it.

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But what becomes tricky is let's use the workplace, for example.

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Well, if I'm an HR person and I've got these two employees, or maybe an employee and a boss, and they're in a scuffle about time off or the way a project was done or any of those things, how, in those scenarios, do we create a business culture of peace?

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How do we create that culture of resolution, because I know that that's a big part of what you do for others.

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No, exactly.

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In fact, what I would suggest, brian, is what we're wanting to do is to make conflict productive in all our environments, in other words, to harness that energy and to understand that when we're in a conflict, it's telling us something needs to change.

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But when we get there, that's when we're really flying.

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The tragedy is, most people get taken down by their conflict because they try to avoid it, they ignore it.

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When they do eventually can't ignore it, they come down with very unsophisticated, an unsophisticated, blunt approach to it, rather than recognizing that conflict resolution takes greater creativity, it takes higher levels of emotional intelligence.

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But when we do it right, like I say, conflict can truly become productive in our team environments.

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Yeah, john, there's a quote and I know you and I are both suckers for good quotes.

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I'm going to botch this one.

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Every time I want to, I have to Google it, but here on the fly it's something along the lines of travel is one of the biggest tools in our arsenals because it gives us new perspective and with that fresh perspective, bigotry, hate, all of these negative things that we experience as humans.

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They subside because of that enlargent perspective.

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And I want to introduce this part to our conversation because something you and I talked about before of being immigrants in this country, and for you, as someone who came here from South Africa with its own rich history, with so much that we can learn looking backwards into South Africa, is that you bring so much of that perspective to you.

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What is it about the immigrant mindset, what is it about the immigrant experience that gives you some of these perspectives, that set you up not only within the context of what we're talking about so far, about communication and resolution, but also I want you to tease us with that entrepreneurial impact with your immigrant hat on.

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Sure, you're right.

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I'm not sure that I fully appreciated that I was an immigrant when I arrived in the United States.

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I'll just say I'm very grateful for the opportunities that I've had here, but none of them would have been realized without me taking action.

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And I have an old schoolmate, ziggy, who encouraged me early on in life.

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He said if you have a choice between action and inaction, take action.

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And then, along the path of life, I encountered another quote that's really helped me, which essentially says clarity comes from action, not thought.

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And honestly, if I look back at what I did was you know I arrived in the United States.

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I like to think that I found mediation on the streets of San Francisco because there was an organization called the Learning Annex and they were offering an evening program on mediation.

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I thought, wow, I can learn to be a mediator in one evening.

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Of course, that wasn't true, but I still remember that was the night, or the evening that I decided I'm going to be a mediator, and there was never a question that I was going to do that.

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All that I had to do was to take action, and some of my action wasn't always the smartest, but it was through the action that I kept getting the feedback and then also, what I also found was that life, in a way, is supportive and that I was constantly getting breadcrumbs or indicators of going this direction rather than that direction.

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But that, fundamentally, has driven me, brian.

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In other words, my desire to succeed in a new country, my desire to make a positive impact in the world and, as I keep saying, my desire to help put the tools of conflict resolution into everyone's hands.

00:20:22.651 --> 00:20:30.794
With that kind of a vision for myself, taking action was the least that I could do.

00:20:30.794 --> 00:20:40.928
But again, what I've consistently found that it does depend on that willingness to show up, take action, take the feedback on the chin, in other words, and I'll give you a more recent example.

00:20:40.928 --> 00:20:41.428
So I have.

00:20:42.710 --> 00:20:53.219
I'm the purveyor of what I call fine communication tools on Amazon and Etsy and, a while ago, the cards that I sell.

00:20:53.219 --> 00:21:06.152
They call them the empathy set and they're essentially feelings and needs cards and they're really powerful prompts to help people get in touch with what they're both feeling and needing, and each card just has the word like afraid or angry, or jealous, or content or engaged, whatever it may be.

00:21:06.152 --> 00:21:10.528
Well, I got some feedback along the way on Amazon where someone said what a waste.

00:21:10.528 --> 00:21:13.044
There's just a word on it, nothing else, no definitions.

00:21:13.044 --> 00:21:15.391
And I remember going like, oh man, that really sucked.

00:21:15.391 --> 00:21:27.193
But then I sort of regrouped and I realized I was being given some feedback, I was being given an opportunity to re-pivot, and so what I did is I came out with a new product with definitions.

00:21:27.901 --> 00:21:37.372
So that, to me, has really been the sort of my spirit is taking action, being open to feedback, recognizing that my clarity comes from my action, not from my thought.

00:21:38.621 --> 00:21:46.426
And that's, as I say, which is slow, that sort of slowly allowed me to guide myself but also to be guided to the point that I've got to.

00:21:46.426 --> 00:21:51.503
And also just to end with where you started, brian, talking about differing perspectives.

00:21:51.503 --> 00:21:56.161
To me that is so essential or key to being a mediator.

00:21:56.161 --> 00:22:03.167
But again, I think a lot of the time what my encouragement is to everyone is to say don't say to yourself well, I'm not a mediator.

00:22:03.167 --> 00:22:07.671
John Rather say how can I take the wisdom of the mediator and apply that to my life?

00:22:07.671 --> 00:22:12.980
And so one of them is that we do honor and celebrate the diversity of perspectives.

00:22:12.980 --> 00:22:32.042
I always say, as a mediator, we're a respecter of differences and we also seek to be and this is a term I really like to be omnipartial, and what that really means is that, rather than taking one side or the other, we're on everyone's side, and so we always want to see all perspectives, not just our own, and to recognize that everyone has a valid perspective.

00:22:32.885 --> 00:22:35.073
Yeah, john, really powerful stuff here.

00:22:35.073 --> 00:22:51.882
I'm going to call this out because the one objection that I get all the time when I talk about sales and communication and marketing is everyone says to me well, sure, it must come easy for you because you're an extreme extrovert which is absolutely true, and I do think that personality plays into it certainly is one of our biggest unique differentiators.

00:22:51.882 --> 00:22:55.208
But I think personality plays into a lot of the ways that we operate.

00:22:55.208 --> 00:23:09.080
And, john, hearing you talk here today, I know that listeners I think podcasting it's such an intimate format because people are listening to us while they're driving right now, while they're working out, while they're maybe working or pretending to work, they're really listening to us.

00:23:09.141 --> 00:23:12.451
And, john, your personality is shining through and it reminds me of that quote.

00:23:12.451 --> 00:23:14.883
You cannot see your reflection in boiling water.

00:23:14.883 --> 00:23:17.686
Similarly, you cannot see the truth in a state of anger.

00:23:17.686 --> 00:23:20.771
When the water's calm clarity comes.

00:23:20.771 --> 00:23:26.692
And John, interacting with you here today, it just seems to me like you have that calm demeanor.

00:23:26.692 --> 00:23:29.540
You're able to turn that temperature down.

00:23:29.540 --> 00:23:36.507
And hearing when you talk about the tools that you use as an example, yes, those tools work when we can turn that temperature down.

00:23:36.507 --> 00:23:45.290
Talk to us about that, recognizing that it's part of your personality and I'm curious to hear your perspective on it, because you've known you a lot longer than I have, john.

00:23:45.290 --> 00:23:53.521
But I want to hear your perspective on how that turning the temperature down plays into it, if that's a skill set we can all develop, or how we can do it in real time.

00:23:54.742 --> 00:23:57.444
Well, brian, I feel like we're having two conversations.

00:23:57.444 --> 00:24:00.707
One of them is me as the entrepreneur and we can certainly.

00:24:00.707 --> 00:24:06.451
I'm enjoying exploring that and then there's the skills of conflict resolution and mediation.

00:24:06.451 --> 00:24:34.926
So the first, just in terms of the entrepreneurial side, I'm less extroverted than you are, brian, I'm more of an introvert, but I really enjoy being with folks and just to sort of underscore what you're sort of saying, I think no matter when we are subject matter expert, in certain ways, one of the biggest mistakes we can make is neglecting the importance of being the fact that we're in business and I really took that on early and I'm so grateful that I did and really have come to enjoy it and to see that marketing is really.

00:24:34.926 --> 00:24:45.393
It's almost like a conflict resolution conversation because the way I look at it is, I'm trying to establish whether my potential client has a set of needs that I can fulfill.

00:24:45.393 --> 00:24:53.648
So it's really about communicating about what their needs are, what I can offer, and seeing if we have a basis for business and, as I say, that's gone really, really well.

00:24:54.220 --> 00:25:05.968
But coming back to that question of saying the value of being calm, now, certainly in a business negotiation, if you're emotionally dysregulated, you're not going to be making good decisions.

00:25:05.968 --> 00:25:10.846
You're also going to probably be aggravating and putting the other person off, so that's not going to be good for business.

00:25:10.846 --> 00:25:41.969
But certainly in our everyday lives, as we go through our experiences with our friends, with our families, with our colleagues, people are going to do things that basically get under our skin and annoy us or animate us in some kind of ways, socialize ourselves not to value emotionality, to believe that reason is more important than emotion, and not truly understand how emotional human beings truly are.

00:25:41.969 --> 00:25:54.390
So one of the biggest counterintuitive tips and insights I can share with folks is that when someone just, for example, is angry, the last thing you want to do is ignore that or invalidate that.

00:25:54.390 --> 00:25:59.854
The best thing that we can do when people are experiencing strong emotionality is acknowledge that.

00:25:59.854 --> 00:26:02.303
There are a number of terms we can use for that.

00:26:02.303 --> 00:26:06.583
One of them is actually called affect labeling, where we just say you're pissed or you're angry.

00:26:06.583 --> 00:26:14.144
The worst thing we can do is sort of suggest to the person that they shouldn't be, because then they're going to pile it on, and as simple as that is.

00:26:14.144 --> 00:26:17.410
I invite everyone to experiment with that as you go through life.

00:26:17.810 --> 00:26:21.781
There's a nice little handy phrase from Dr David Rocka, neuroscientist.

00:26:21.781 --> 00:26:24.007
He says name it to tame it.

00:26:24.007 --> 00:26:32.240
When we acknowledge what we're feeling, we can reduce our stress levels by up to 50%, and that's certainly for ourselves, but it also applies to others.

00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:52.127
In other words, when we're working with folks as a mediator, one of my most important tools is acknowledging, reflecting back, demonstrating that I've heard what the person is saying, but, importantly, connecting with that emotional energy, letting them know that the feeling that they have is okay and that builds into another.

00:26:52.127 --> 00:26:56.986
I would suggest another key insight, which is that all emotions are providing us with useful information.

00:26:57.507 --> 00:27:00.814
So many of us have this idea that there are good emotions and bad emotions.

00:27:00.814 --> 00:27:18.391
Truthfully, they're all good, and anger just to decode and unbundle one of the classics that always appears in conflict resolution when someone's angry, it tells me they care strongly about something and their strategy isn't working, and then life brings them a whole lot of energy which, tragically, we often act out on.

00:27:18.391 --> 00:27:20.815
So it's also always important to remember the feeling.

00:27:20.815 --> 00:27:29.707
The feeling of, say, anger is not the same as the behavior like yelling or slamming the door or, even worse, using a violence.

00:27:29.707 --> 00:27:39.763
But if we can remember that all emotions are good, separate feelings from behavior, and then also just that power of just letting a person know I get what you're feeling.

00:27:39.763 --> 00:27:41.347
You're pissed.

00:27:41.347 --> 00:27:42.450
That was devastating.

00:27:42.450 --> 00:27:45.342
That was so confusing, whatever it may be.

00:27:45.342 --> 00:27:48.392
Let them know that you've got what they're feeling.

00:27:48.392 --> 00:27:59.871
That's so, so, so powerful in terms of being able to then have a rational conversation with someone or brainstorm or be creative and come up with fun and new ideas about what you're going to do next.

00:28:00.574 --> 00:28:02.480
Yeah, john, I've never heard that before.

00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:03.763
Name it to tame it.

00:28:03.763 --> 00:28:05.689
I absolutely love that insight and I'll tell you what.

00:28:05.689 --> 00:28:27.941
My niece and nephew are six-year-old twins and probably my favorite movie to watch with them is a Disney movie called Inside Out, which is all about emotions and I see that you're nodding your head that it's incredible because it shows that every situation, a different emotion guides us through that, and one of the main characters is indeed anger, and there are times where it calls for anger.

00:28:27.941 --> 00:28:29.705
So I love that visual representation.

00:28:29.766 --> 00:28:34.246
But I'm going to keep piggybacking off of, because you and I quotes are the name of the game here today.

00:28:34.246 --> 00:28:41.403
And what I love about your work, it's my favorite Albert Einstein quote of all time where he says if you want to impress someone, make it complicated.

00:28:41.403 --> 00:28:43.613
If you want to help someone, make it simple.

00:28:43.613 --> 00:28:50.859
And what I think is so powerful about your work is what more complex topics are there out there than human beings and emotions?

00:28:50.859 --> 00:29:01.512
There's so much from a theoretical and philosophical perspective that is very complex about what we're talking about here today, but, john, you simplify these things into practical tools.

00:29:01.512 --> 00:29:09.919
This is fun because you're right, you called it out we are having two conversations simultaneously the conflict resolution and the peace stuff, as well as the entrepreneurial part.

00:29:09.919 --> 00:29:16.625
And what I think is incredible is the way you merge those two with the talking sticks and with the empathy set which you teased us a little bit about.

00:29:16.625 --> 00:29:22.164
Talk to us about those solutions and how they practically bring these to the power of real life people.

00:29:23.048 --> 00:29:24.090
Sure, sure, sure.

00:29:24.090 --> 00:29:49.528
That really that has been super exciting for me, brian, as you say the convergence of me, the entrepreneur, with the skill of conflict resolution and realizing that there's an opportunity from a business point of view, but also, I like to think, a noble mission of trying to help the world, or put tools into the hands of the world that enable them to take care of their conflict without having to call on a mediator.

00:29:49.528 --> 00:29:51.023
So just let's start with it.

00:29:51.023 --> 00:29:52.351
We'll start with the talking sticks.

00:29:52.351 --> 00:29:56.786
Classically, a mediator ensures that their structural balance in the conversation.

00:29:56.786 --> 00:30:22.820
In other words, just if we take a classic conflict between two people, there's A and there's B, the mediator is going to ensure that A has an opportunity to share their perspective and to feel heard and validated and understood, and the mediator is also going to ensure that person B is going to have that same equal opportunity of being able to have their perspective heard, validated and for them to be understood.

00:30:22.840 --> 00:30:27.313
Sadly, what happens in real life a lot of the time is we have what I refer to as lopsided conflict resolution conversations, where one person dominates.

00:30:27.313 --> 00:30:33.529
It may not be entirely in terms of airtime, it might just be in terms of how they frame the dispute.

00:30:33.529 --> 00:30:37.707
So you're always talking about the situation through their lens, through their framing.

00:30:37.707 --> 00:30:44.429
So a talking stick is a truly powerful tool that essentially establishes who's the speaker and who's the listener.

00:30:44.429 --> 00:30:49.288
And the simple way it works is, when you've got the talking stick, you're the speaker and the others are listeners.

00:30:49.288 --> 00:30:52.544
They're in service of demonstrating their understanding to you.

00:30:52.544 --> 00:31:00.801
And when you say to them, I feel like you've understood me, I feel like you've got me in terms of what I want to share, you pass the talking stick to that other person.

00:31:00.801 --> 00:31:10.742
So in that sense, we accomplish that, as I say, one of those primary tasks of the mediator, which is to ensure that there's structural balance, and with a simple tool like a talking stick.

00:31:10.742 --> 00:31:26.750
It could be a feather, it could be a paperweight, but I've created two beautiful talking sticks, one beaded and one with a giraffe, to remind us of the big heart that the giraffe needs to pump all the blood up its long neck and that a heartfelt conversation is going to help.

00:31:27.070 --> 00:31:27.992
Anyway, that's the first thing.

00:31:27.992 --> 00:31:30.964
The second thing is feelings and needs.

00:31:30.964 --> 00:31:38.250
What I've consistently observed is that there are two key conversations that we're always having in a conflict resolution setting.

00:31:38.250 --> 00:31:49.336
One is about feelings and that often, sort of is more directed to what I sometimes refer to as the pain of the past, that we need to clean out the wound before we stitch it up.

00:31:49.336 --> 00:32:03.928
So the first part of the conflict resolution conversation is listening deeply to one another, acknowledging in particular those feelings Again, sometimes those scary feelings that it's hard for us to acknowledge that someone's disappointed in us or angry with us, and things like that.

00:32:03.928 --> 00:32:13.891
But that's the key core conversation that allows us to move beyond the pain of the past deep acknowledgement, deep validation of the person's emotional experience.

00:32:13.891 --> 00:32:18.826
But the other conversation is about needs, and needs really points us to the future and what we're going to do.

00:32:18.826 --> 00:32:23.546
Because, as I said, in any situation humans have needs, humans are very needy.

00:32:23.546 --> 00:32:25.510
Life starts with the need for air.

00:32:25.510 --> 00:32:34.566
We breathe and the last thing we do is we take that final breath and in between we've got a whole lot of needs that we need to meet and needs set us up to problem solve.

00:32:34.566 --> 00:32:51.780
So you know, for example, there are two people involved in a situation In fact I'll tell it very quickly, a very quick sort of situation where I was mediating and we had a little bit of a conflict, I suppose, about where, the venue and where we're going to meet.

00:32:52.342 --> 00:33:01.452
The tenants of this apartment block wanted to meet at the apartment block and the new owners wanted to meet at City Hall and we started having a conversation about it.

00:33:01.452 --> 00:33:09.111
The tenants were adamant that it needed to be at the apartment block and when I asked them about it they said well, we're elderly, it's really hard for us to get here.

00:33:09.111 --> 00:33:10.457
I didn't invalidate them.

00:33:10.457 --> 00:33:18.029
I acknowledged that the struggle that they were having, and then I said it sounds like what you folks need is a venue that's easily accessible.

00:33:18.029 --> 00:33:18.832
And they said yes.

00:33:18.832 --> 00:33:20.673
And then I turned to the owners.

00:33:20.673 --> 00:33:22.061
I said what about you?

00:33:22.061 --> 00:33:25.391
And they said well, for us, we drive here, it's no big deal.

00:33:25.391 --> 00:33:27.892
We don't really care where the meeting is, as long as we have the meeting.

00:33:27.892 --> 00:33:29.840
So easy access wasn't an issue for them.

00:33:30.602 --> 00:33:33.627
But there were two of them and the younger of the two said but you know what?

00:33:33.627 --> 00:33:42.429
We've held meetings at the apartment block before and every time we have meetings there it's like the tenants who've lived there forever have home field advantage.

00:33:42.429 --> 00:33:52.226
So I said oh, it sounds like what you need is a neutral venue and once we had that that, we're looking for, in terms of our conversation, a venue that was both easily accessible and neutral.

00:33:52.226 --> 00:33:58.321
It enabled us then to brainstorm and come up with a solution that was basically excellent.

00:33:58.321 --> 00:34:05.248
There was a church next door to the building, there was a meeting hall there, it was easily accessible and also neutral.

00:34:05.749 --> 00:34:27.061
So again, just to sort of summarize, those to me are the two key conversations we always need to navigate, in other words, the feelings and needs conversations, and what I've often found is that, despite best intentions, the minute we start talking about something it was a little tricky for ourselves, we end up careering off the what I'd call the pathway of civility and respect.

00:34:27.061 --> 00:34:51.172
But with the feelings and needs cards that I've created, it helps people to speak about something that would have otherwise been really difficult and maybe dangerous because it would have triggered someone else, and allows them to discover what their feelings and needs were, but also, importantly, to discover what the other person's feelings and needs were too, and from that to have the wherewithal to come up with a solution that works for both of them.

00:34:52.139 --> 00:35:11.193
Yeah, really powerful stuff, and even more so than powerful, practical and I love this real life story that you shared with us of an example that shows conflict is all upon us and finding the solution, when we come at it in this really structured way that you provide for other people, it's powerful, the ideal outcomes that we can achieve together.

00:35:11.193 --> 00:35:12.974
So I really appreciate those insights.

00:35:12.974 --> 00:35:15.255
John, I knew we'd be short on time here today.

00:35:15.255 --> 00:35:30.050
I could listen to you talk about all of this stuff for days on end and, fortunately, listeners, we're gonna drop some links in just a few minutes from now about where you can find so much of John's incredible work, from his book to these practical tools that we just talked about.

00:35:30.099 --> 00:35:34.280
But before we get there, john, I always love asking at the end of every episode about the one actionable takeaway.

00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:36.202
You, I always love asking at the end of every episode about the one actionable takeaway.

00:35:36.202 --> 00:35:40.969
You know my strong propensity for action and listeners are going to be inspired.

00:35:40.969 --> 00:35:46.715
Hearing you talk about all of these things in theory and putting them in practice is the important stuff.

00:35:46.715 --> 00:35:51.391
So what's that one thing that you hope every entrepreneur and entrepreneur walks away from?

00:35:51.440 --> 00:36:01.505
today's episode with Well, I've shared a number of things, brian, so in some senses it's going to be reinforcing what I've already shared.

00:36:01.505 --> 00:36:12.134
But probably the most important thing I would encourage people in in terms of a practical thing they can do is to have the courage to speak up.

00:36:12.134 --> 00:36:23.072
As I say, oftentimes not speaking is the wrongdoing, and there's a simple little way in which you can discover whether this is a situation where you do need to speak up.

00:36:23.072 --> 00:36:28.893
There's a handy grid that asks how important is the relationship and how important is the outcome.

00:36:28.893 --> 00:36:36.507
When you're in a situation where you're in a relationship that you value, in other words, this person is someone important to you.

00:36:36.507 --> 00:36:44.164
It could be a partner, it could be a sibling, it could be a friend, it could be a colleague, it could be a vendor, you know, it could be a client.

00:36:44.164 --> 00:36:46.306
Those would all be the folks that I would be thinking.

00:36:46.306 --> 00:36:50.286
Those are important relationships, and the outcome is important too.

00:36:50.286 --> 00:36:52.626
In other words, something important is at stake.

00:36:52.626 --> 00:37:05.492
That's when it makes sense to collaborate, and that's when it makes sense to collaborate, and that's when it definitely makes sense that, when there has been a rupture or there has been a breach of trust or there's been a miscommunication, not talking is wrongdoing.

00:37:05.532 --> 00:37:12.202
Conversely, you may encounter and it's always good to be alert to these situations, because who wants unnecessary drama in life?

00:37:12.202 --> 00:37:20.146
But you may be in a situation where the relationship is not important and the outcome is not important, and that's when it's fine to just let it go.

00:37:20.146 --> 00:37:24.324
A simple little example of that would be you're driving home from work.

00:37:24.324 --> 00:37:27.864
You get to a four-way intersection at exactly the same time as the other driver.

00:37:27.864 --> 00:37:37.911
You don't know who's in that car, they're just a member of the human family, but they're not close to you, and the person that's going to get home is going to get home maybe three, four, five seconds sooner than the other person.

00:37:38.271 --> 00:37:42.003
So that would be just as an example of saying there are times when you can avoid.

00:37:42.003 --> 00:37:50.650
But my big sort of caution to you is beware that you're not avoiding because you're afraid or because you don't have the skills.

00:37:50.650 --> 00:37:56.748
And if you don't have the skills, I'd say skill up, get tools that can be helpful to you and, importantly, have that courage.

00:37:56.748 --> 00:37:57.208
It's really.

00:37:57.208 --> 00:38:01.715
It ties back in with that entrepreneurial spirit of taking action.

00:38:01.715 --> 00:38:15.887
Taking action, speaking up and then letting the conversation flow from there, with a focus on balance, each person having an opportunity to speak and making sure that you're acknowledging and validating both the feelings and needs.

00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:21.719
Boom.

00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:22.643
So beautifully articulated, john.

00:38:22.643 --> 00:38:33.123
You said you were just going to reiterate things we've already talked about, but you always find ways, through new analogies or visuals, that really hammer home these points in ways that deeply resonate, and the stop sign example, I think, is such a key one.

00:38:33.123 --> 00:38:39.628
So I really appreciate these insights here today and, as we tease quite a few ways, you're putting a lot of good stuff into the world.

00:38:39.628 --> 00:38:48.306
So for listeners who want to go deeper into all of these things and put it into practice in their lives and, importantly, in their businesses, drop those links on us.

00:38:48.306 --> 00:38:49.826
Where should listeners go from here?

00:38:51.181 --> 00:38:52.887
Well, I have a number of websites.

00:38:52.887 --> 00:38:57.422
I've got johnfordcom, which was also I'm a number of websites.

00:38:57.422 --> 00:39:04.838
I've got johnfordcom, which was also I'm actually kind of proud of, as I discovered, they didn't change my name when I came through Ellis Island, and I'm not the only John Ford in America, so I'm happy to have johnfordcom where you can find out.

00:39:04.838 --> 00:39:05.701
That's really about my.

00:39:05.701 --> 00:39:08.989
What I think of as my day job is the workplace mediator.

00:39:08.989 --> 00:39:20.010
Do a lot of work with teams as well, but in terms of the cards and the talking sticks, the EmpathySetcom is where you'll find that and something I can't believe that I haven't mentioned, I've also, beyond the cards.

00:39:20.010 --> 00:39:32.342
I've developed an app version of the EmpathySet, which puts the power of the EmpathySet feelings and needs and a whole lot of other tools to create I statements, to brainstorm and do more at your fingertips.

00:39:32.342 --> 00:39:40.434
So the two big websites would be Johnfordcom and wwwempathysetcom.

00:39:41.161 --> 00:39:43.030
Yes, listeners, you already know the drill.

00:39:43.030 --> 00:39:47.989
We are dropping those links directly down below in the show notes, wherever it is that you're tuning into today's episode.

00:39:47.989 --> 00:39:51.208
John, I also can't believe that you got your namecom.

00:39:51.208 --> 00:40:00.934
It's easy for my name because I'm one in a million, but for you it's super impressive that you landed that domain so super easy to remember, listeners, johnfordcom, or just find the links down below.

00:40:00.934 --> 00:40:03.170
You can click right on through.

00:40:03.170 --> 00:40:04.219
We're also linking to John's book on Amazon.

00:40:04.219 --> 00:40:07.630
It's called Peace at Work, the HR Manager's Guide to Workplace Mediation.

00:40:07.630 --> 00:40:10.003
We're linking to all of his physical products.

00:40:10.003 --> 00:40:16.514
I think it's so cool what you're doing building this empire on Amazon, etsy, in order to serve others and make it so practical.

00:40:16.514 --> 00:40:23.023
So, john, on behalf of myself and all of our listeners, worldwide.

00:40:23.043 --> 00:40:24.085
Thanks so much for joining us on the show today.

00:40:24.085 --> 00:40:24.427
Thank you, brian.

00:40:24.427 --> 00:40:40.606
I really really appreciate the opportunity and appreciate what you do, creating the space for folks like me to share a little bit about what we're up to, and your energy is hard to to match such positivity and joy that just seems to emanate from you, and thank you for the support.

00:40:41.106 --> 00:40:48.721
Thank you so much john hey, it's brian here, and thanks for tuning in to yet another episode of the entrepreneur to entrepreneur podcast.

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If you haven't checked us out online, there's so much good stuff there.

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Check out the show's website and all the show notes that we talked about in today's episode at thewantrepreneurshowcom.

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And I just want to give a shout out to our amazing guests.

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There's a reason why we are ad free and have produced so many incredible episodes five days a week for you, and it's because our guests step up to the plate.

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These are not sponsored episodes.

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These are not infomercials.

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Our guests help us cover the costs of our productions.

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They so deeply believe in the power of getting their message out in front of you, awesome entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, that they contribute to help us make these productions possible.

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So thank you to not only today's guests, but all of our guests in general, and I just want to invite you check out our website because you can send us a voicemail there.

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We also have live chat.

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If you want to interact directly with me, go to thewantrepreneurshowcom.

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Initiate a live chat.

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It's for real me, and I'm excited because I'll see you, as always every Monday, wednesday, friday, saturday and Sunday here on the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.