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Hey, what is up?
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Welcome to this episode of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.
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As always, I'm your host, brian LoFermento, and one of my favorite concepts in both life and business is that one thing leads to another, and today's guest, today's entrepreneur, is such a living example of one thing leading to another.
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Whether we're talking about his forays into the world of acting and improv comedy, as well as his entire career, it just seems like one thing has led to another and it's all resulted in an incredible business that I think most of us, when we hear about what Kyle's up to, we're going to say yeah, why is that not invented sooner?
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Why are we not all using that?
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So let me tell you about today's entrepreneur.
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His name is Kyle Hudson.
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Kyle is the founder and CEO of Stacklist.
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Now, stacklist is a social bookmarking site that helps anyone easily save and organize and then recall and share all of their favorite things that we've all seen online, and we thought, oh, what did I do with that link?
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What did I do with that social media post?
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What did I do with that restaurant?
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Kyle has spent more than two decades helping teams such as Google, spotify, marriott and more research, design and launch products and services into the world.
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Now he's decided to take that expertise and build a product that helps people share and discover their favorite things, places and experiences easily.
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So I'm excited about today's episode.
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I'm not going to say anything else.
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Let's dive straight into my interview with Kyle Hudson.
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All right, kyle, I'm so excited to have you here with us today.
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First things first.
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Welcome to the show.
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Thank you, thank you and I love the intro.
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If you could, if your, if your schedule's free, if you could just come with me and do that at pitches, that would be amazing.
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Kyle, if you want me to do that for you, it's only ever going to be in warm weather, because here I am wearing a sweatshirt.
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It's like 80 degrees outside here in Florida, so it tells you everything about my climate preferences.
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But for real, I'm so pumped about all the things you've done and all the things that you're doing, so you've got to take us beyond the bio.
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Who's Kyle?
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How'd you start doing all these awesome things, some?
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things Awesome.
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Well, yeah, I think it's funny.
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You, you sort of mentioned, one thing leads to another.
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When I was a kid, I remember people would ask me what do you want to do when you grow up?
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And I would be like I want to be a detective and a sniper and an inventor, like I just sort of named all of these things that I wanted to be, and there was never.
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There was never like the one thing, like I'm going to be this one thing.
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It was always I want to be lots of things and that's how things have turned out.
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I've been at large agencies and big companies, but I've also had my own agency a number of times.
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And then I hit my 45th birthday last year and I was like you know what?
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I've been building stuff for other people for a long time and now I want to build stuff for myself.
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So that sort of led to Stacklist.
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Yeah, I love that overview, especially because I thought my combination of wanting to be a meteorologist and a professional soccer player was a weird one.
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But it sounds like you've talked to me there, kyle.
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Talk to me about obviously having the career that you've had and you have done such cool work even before Stacklist.
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I would love for you to navigate, because I kind of have a fuller appreciation than listeners do at this point of the fact that you've done so many different things.
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Walk us through that.
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One thing leads to another journey, because my caveat is that on podcasts it always sounds like it makes perfect sense, but I know that in the moment you could have never predicted what was coming next.
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Right, yeah, no, I think I've always just viewed my career as just being on a river and really sort of listening or whatever.
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The next thing is.
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If you combine that with neurodivergency and ADHD, it also starts to become like you're on one thing and you start doing it, and you start doing really good at it and that's interesting.
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But then like oh, and what about?
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So?
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Oh, blockchain and AI, and like you start and there's this constant need to want to learn.
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I don't do well at companies where I'll get to a place and then the idea is you should really just keep doing that thing for a number of years and then we'll talk about a raise or we'll talk about, you know, a level up.
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I'm always looking for something new.
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So my first thing was really I went to University of Alabama for two years Tuscaloosa really two years is always sort of the thing.
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I wasn't sort of a fan of Tuscaloosa as much.
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I came back to Georgia.
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I went to Georgia State and the first let's see, the first computer level, junior level computer class that I had.
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They said, today we're going to learn Microsoft Word and they handed out the syllabus and I stood up and I never went back to school and I had a friend of mine that was selling web hosting at Interland, which was webcom, and I didn't really know all that much about web hosting, but I did know that he was making good money and he was about my age.
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So I was like, get me an interview.
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So he gets me an interview.
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And I met with the VP of sales who said great, tell me about your experience with web hosting.
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I was like I don't, I don't really have any.
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And he said well, tell me your experience with technology.
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And I was well, you know, I've taken computers apart as a kid and things like that.
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He's like okay, give me your background on sales.
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I was like, oh, I've never really formally done sales.
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And somehow, about an hour and a half later, I end up at the head of sales office on the corner of Peachtree Street in Atlanta and I'm leaning on the window looking out going of Peachtree street in Atlanta and I'm leaning on the window looking out going.
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You know, tom, the thing about sales is and I guess that's some of the, the, the bravado of being, you know, at being 21 and and somehow I made it onto the team and and ended up doing, doing great, and that sort of led to meeting my co-founder, who we left and started an agency and started selling web hosts I mean like web design and development for doctors and lawyers who back in 2000 were like I got to get this thing apparently because, and you know, and that sort of started down the agency path.
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Yeah, and it's cool hearing about that because you've seen all different corners of business, and so that's why I'm just going to throw this out there really early on in our conversation today that your beta of Stacklist looks.
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It looks like the finished product.
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For so many different companies.
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I've used admittedly, kyle, you and I didn't talk about this off the air I've used alternatives similar to what Stacklist does in the past, but none of them really nailed it, whereas Stacklist looks and feels like the finished product.
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Talk to us about Stacklist, because I obviously don't have the full appreciation of how much work has gone into it and the finished product that I'm seeing today, but talk to us about how that has evolved and really how Stacklist was born.
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Yeah, where it was born.
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It started in.
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My wife and I lived in New York and in 2017, we were out to dinner and we our conversations are a little different, I think, than most couples dates.
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We were analyzing the service at the restaurant and sort of how the hostess and then how we were sat and then what could be tweaked to be better.
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We do the same thing with products Um, you know, whether it's a cell phone case or whether it's a coffee mug, like we're always looking at things and sort of thinking like what is it that sticks in my brain and makes me want to use this or makes this one of my favorite things?
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And at that dinner, we were talking about the fact that it's actually not that easy, if you think about it, to just take your favorite things and just kind of like a stack or a deck of cards and just hand it to someone.
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It doesn't work like that.
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When you start thinking about it, you're like, well, I've got some stuff in Google Maps and then probably in Gmail, I've got some links from when I bought something, and then I go into my Amazon purchase you know Amazon history and then I've got two favorite things on Airbnb or bookmark things on Instagram, and so that results in having to sort of sit down and type a Google doc or like an email to someone or just like text, bomb them and be like here's all those things we talked about.
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But then your friend that you send that to has the same problem when did Kyle send that stuff to me and do I have it?
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Do I aggregate it?
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Do I have the notes about it?
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And so we set out to start to build something that would make that easy A Chrome extension.
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Well, we have all the extensions now, and iPhone and Android.
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But wherever you are, if you've got a link from someone or you find something on your phone that you can just take that and send it to Stacklist and then add some notes.
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This is the place we went to eat with our friends and we had the pasta primavera and it was delicious, and so you know.
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By doing those things, you give a little bit of context.
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And then when people ask me you know what are your favorite restaurants in New York?
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If you go to my Stacklist profile, it's on there.
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Like you can find it and you can just save everything.
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And so now I've got those links that I can just text to friends and be like here you go and I don't have to do any work.
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Yeah, I really appreciate as well the diversity of those use cases that you just portrayed for us, because I think one thing that all of us share as entrepreneurs is we are passionate about so many different things.
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For me, for example, I love reading soccer news.
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I love reading political news.
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I love technology.
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I mean, you called out the fact that we all see products on Amazon.
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For me, it's like software tools on AppSumo I see so many that are so cool and I just want to share it with all of my entrepreneurial friends.
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But you're right, it's so hard to recall those things.
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I'll tell someone oh my gosh, I saw this, you know, political commentary in the New York Times.
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They were talking about this, this, and there was this chart in it.
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I can't exactly find that chart again, but you're really solving all of those problems, which leads me to ask you this question, which is part feature based with regards to what you're doing directly with Stacklist, but also just part business strategy of.
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We always hear that advice about niching down, and your product has so many use cases that I've seen your users seem to be niching themselves down, like travel people love using it for travel recommendations.
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It seems like foodies love saving their restaurant lists.
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When you think about the concept of niching down with Stacklist, what does that look like, since it applies so universally?
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It doesn't.
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I don't really want to niche down, and I think that's the glitch in the matrix that I've.
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That I've discovered is everyone's niching down.
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Right, you've got all of these specific apps that you know that you can gather all your restaurants for, or a specific app for what you're reading, or whatever.
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But to me that's just another platform that I have to sign up for and then if I want to share that, I make you sign up for it and my wife sign up for it, and then we have to share those things in that app.
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And then, if that's a books, oh, restaurants, oh yeah, we're on that other app.
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So then I go to the other app and I save it and it just sort of fuels the problem of the fact that everything is a niche and everything is a silo and nothing talks across the silo.
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So, you know, sitting above the clouds is where I want to be, because if we can be the operating system for links in your life, then you know we're working on a Mac app or a PC app and when you click it and you just, you know, you just hit search, article, article or founders I met when I was in New York and it pulls up all the LinkedIn profiles.
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I don't have to go to LinkedIn and then search through which is a use case, by the way, I do.
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I go to these events and I was in tech week all last week and I met so many people go to LinkedIn and try and get a summary of who you met when you were there and what did you talk about and what do they do and like, and so instead, what I do is I add people as I meet them to stack list and I add notes in AI also does angel funding.
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You know whatever, I make a stack for that trip.
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And now when somebody says like you know, oh my gosh, you know who'd you meet or where'd you go, I have a stack and I just send it to them.
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And it's not only restaurants, but also like events I went to and all the people I met.
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Yeah, I'm grateful that you called that out, kyle.
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I just feel like at this period in history and even this period in the future, with so many cool technology things coming to the world, it feels like we're seeing a huge shift.
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You called out not niching down in all the different silos that exist.
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I'm even thinking about the streaming services.
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I mean, holy cow, we're all signed up to so many different things that I've seen people on Reddit talking about, like imagine if we just had one subscription and it had all these things, and all the commenters were like, yeah, cable, you mean cable, like that's what it used to look like.
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I love the fact that you call that out.
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It feels silly asking you this next question because the way that you're talking about stack list, I want to ask you about how strategic and intentional you are and you have been in what it is that you're building, but it almost sounds to me like you're just building what you need and what you want to use and it's applying across the board.
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Talk to us about serving yourself versus also thinking about those external use cases that you may not have but your users do.
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I think it is starting from just the culmination of almost 25 years being in product and digital and in and around and leading design and development teams and sort of taking all of that into account.
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I'm also, I'm, I'm, I'm one of those people that sign up for every single thing that comes across, like I see something and they're like, oh you, you know you could do this, here's a new service, and I'm, I sign up and I try it and I'm always like, at least for the first week or so, I want to understand how it works and what it does and what it solves, and so I'm trying to bake that in there.
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But I am trying to also prove the ubiquity of the need to just solve things across different verticals and not niche down.
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And I'll give you an example.
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I have a good friend in New York who's a real estate agent and I ask him how do you send prospective places to people that you work with?
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Well, I go to StreetEasy and I go to Redfin, I go to Zillow, I grab some links and I email them and I say here's some properties for you.
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Okay, great.
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So those links are now in that one email and so whenever you want to go back to it, you go to the one email or you open them up, sign up for Redfin and Zillow and StreetEasy and then save them on each of those platforms.
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Wait, okay, so that doesn't work.
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And so, instead of doing that being able to save all of those links across all those platforms but also add the context, just like we do when we text somebody hey, this place is great, it's a little smaller than you were wanting, but it's got great light and it sits on the top floor Like you could add each one of those.
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And we're working on collaborative stacks where you and I could have a stack say, if we were looking for apartments in Chicago or whatever that we could have a stack that we're adding things to, and you could be like this was terrible and you could delete it, and then I could add a new one and we could have comments on those.
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And we're collaborating.
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But, again, we're doing it above Zillow and Redfin and all of these sort of things, which allows us, you know, to collaborate above that.
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Plus, I go into my Stacklist account the same account that I save recipes and Netflix shows or books and I just type you know, upper West Side, and it brings up all of the things that we've been saving and looking for a specific area, instead of having to then remember think one of the ones that I really really liked was on Zillow, and then I log in there and I look at the hearts.
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So by not niching down, I don't want to become a real estate app.
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The problem is not saving real estate links.
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The problem is being able to save all the things that you're into and recall them really quickly.
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Another good example is we're actually building out a couple of profiles and working with pro gamers, and so being able to not only showcase some of the best kills in Rainbow Six or some of the best clutch wins, but also what's my streaming setup and what's my gaming PC setup.
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By doing that, it's one place that you can look at somebody holistically on their profile, not just sort of a set of links like here's my blog, here's my Twitch, here's my you know, tiktok.
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It's also all of the things that they're into both personally and professionally makes a much more interesting thing of seeing how someone curates their life.
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Yeah, I'm so glad you used that word curate, because I'm going to call you out for being a little counterintuitive in your approach in today's day and age, not only for not niching down, but really I want to hone in on that curation element as well.
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Kyle, I know that you're just as much of a business junkie as I am.
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I love the fact that you launched your podcast.
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That's so cool to see the work that you're doing there as well, and so, along those lines, I love business case studies, and I was recently talking to a very brilliant entrepreneur and he gave me the example of Spotify versus Pandora.
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So they both launched at similar times.
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Pandora decided, well, we've got algorithms and we can figure out, based on thumbs ups and thumbs downs, what you like better than you probably can.
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Spotify came along and said we're just gonna let people create playlists and anyone can find those playlists and anyone can learn from those playlists, and obviously we know who won that battle.
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And so I want to talk to you about that curation in the social element of it tools that I've used to just save my links in the past.
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They've been great for me.
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I mean they've been a little bit archaic and stuck in the stone ages.
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But it seems to me like stack list is so dedicated to making that curation findable and making us able to share.
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Talk to me about the importance of that component in what it is that you're building.
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Yeah, so everything in Stacklist is to get into sort of some of the AI portions of it.
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Everything is vectorized, meaning that it has context of what you save, so you could actually search and say what we're working towards.
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Is that like, show me the stuff that Brian sent me when we met up in Chicago?
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Again, the context is not it may not be specific to the content itself, but the context of who sent it and when they sent it, which I think helps a lot for not having to completely remember everything about the thing that you're trying to find, but more the context around it.
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And so, but the discovery portion, excuse me, the discovery portion is so key when I look at the opposite of what doesn't work right now.
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Is Yelp Good example, right?
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Or even if I do Google Maps, if I go to San Francisco and I pull up something, I'm looking for a restaurant.
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This actually happened to me about two weeks ago.
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I'm standing on the corner on Market Street and I haven't been to San Francisco in a while and I open up Google Maps and I just say restaurants because I'm starving, and what you do is it brings you up about 15 things.
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Now, it's very random Summer ads.
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Are those the best ones I want.
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They just paid more.
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And then I pinch and zoom and everything's literally this day everything was between 4.1 and 4.3 stars.
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Is that good?
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Because it feels like in this day and age, if it's below four and a half, you're like, oh, that must be terrible and so it's such an arbitrary thing that we've done.
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And then you have to go into each place and look at comments.
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Is the sentiment bad?
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Is it bad because someone said the hostess wasn't nice?
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There's so much work that we have to do these days to figure out what is good because of other people's versions of curation.
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Yelp also is a good example.
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You know, yelp, I feel like, gets way more into like two and three stars, which feels like is it literally burning down right now?
00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:26.423
And Gemini doesn't know how good the goat cheese balls are at Echo in Atlanta, because I've had them.
00:19:26.423 --> 00:19:28.147
But Google Gemini has not eaten them.
00:19:28.147 --> 00:19:32.324
So I can tell you you should definitely go to Echo in Atlanta and get.
00:19:32.324 --> 00:19:37.247
It is like a donut with goat cheese in the middle and honey cracked pepper on top.
00:19:37.247 --> 00:19:47.236
But that's again something that I only know from a context perspective, not because perplexity or Google Gemini was able to sort of look through a bunch of different stuff and go.
00:19:47.517 --> 00:19:48.902
I think this one could be good.
00:19:48.902 --> 00:20:14.884
However, if you had that restaurant in your Stacklist account and so did I and so did 83 other people and the social velocity of that restaurant was really high, people aren't going to put terrible restaurants in their account, so we sort of do away with needing ratings and comparisons and comments as much as being able to see how fast is this thing moving and how many accounts does this send in and how much is it shared.
00:20:14.884 --> 00:20:32.248
Now I get a much better set of recommendations based on my first and second circle of finding and discovering something, versus just looking at an arbitrary list that has ads, a bunch of SEO hacking and a bunch of comments that I don't know if that's actually true right now or not.
00:20:32.875 --> 00:20:44.171
Yeah, kyle, it's so fun hearing the mind of a product creator and designer like yourself, because you have thought so strategically about all these things, and that's exactly why I love asking people like you.
00:20:44.171 --> 00:21:00.279
This next question, because I'm of the firm belief that great products have an obligation to have great marketing behind them, because you have something that legitimately I mean a billion people worldwide would benefit from anyone who has the internet more than a billion people, because anyone who has the internet we all have this problem.
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:02.124
Every single person has this problem.
00:21:02.124 --> 00:21:03.707
Anyone with a phone has this problem.
00:21:03.707 --> 00:21:09.359
So, kyle, this is my challenge to you that you obviously have the obligation to get it into the hands of as many people as possible.
00:21:09.842 --> 00:21:14.759
Talk to me from that perspective, because I do know that you obviously have an amazing marketing mind as well.
00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:16.743
What's that plan look like?
00:21:16.743 --> 00:21:25.743
Because I've seen firsthand, when I look into Stacklist, how much cool user generated content is out there UGC content we hear people talk about that all the time.
00:21:25.743 --> 00:21:28.897
So at a point, it sells itself.
00:21:28.897 --> 00:21:31.364
It markets itself the more we all start using it.
00:21:31.364 --> 00:21:32.935
But where's your head at in that regard?
00:21:35.019 --> 00:21:44.078
I think right now we're really focused on just making it first useful at its core, really focused on just making it first useful at its core.
00:21:44.078 --> 00:21:44.862
So there's a couple of levels to it.
00:21:44.862 --> 00:21:50.597
One if it's just super easy for you to save things and find those things again, that is step one.
00:21:50.597 --> 00:21:53.884
So we're making the Stacklist ecosystem.
00:21:53.884 --> 00:21:57.477
I mean, normally I would think there's probably some recommendations.
00:21:57.477 --> 00:22:00.642
Don't go build a bunch of apps, just make the platform and make it good.
00:22:00.642 --> 00:22:06.289
We immediately went into Chrome, firefox, edge Safari comes out next week.
00:22:06.289 --> 00:22:11.624
And then we went into iOS, android and we're working on Mac and PC.
00:22:11.624 --> 00:22:14.348
But the idea is wherever you are.
00:22:14.348 --> 00:22:19.376
If you're going to really be the operating system for links in someone's life, then you got to be wherever they are.
00:22:19.376 --> 00:22:27.743
So if you're walking down the street or if you're working on your laptop, your iPad or whatever, and you want to recall that thing, making it really really easy to get something in and get something out.
00:22:27.743 --> 00:22:32.949
So that utility is also very different when you think about building a social network.
00:22:32.949 --> 00:22:41.166
Something like a Facebook or an Instagram doesn't have really that utility that you're like I cannot live without this.
00:22:41.166 --> 00:22:42.695
Sometimes you abandon it.
00:22:42.695 --> 00:22:44.339
You're like I'm deleting Instagram forever.
00:22:44.339 --> 00:22:45.261
I scroll too much.
00:22:45.261 --> 00:22:55.904
But that's usually just because you want that sort of social interaction piece, but it doesn't really have that utility of running or curating your life and all the things in it.
00:22:55.904 --> 00:23:01.758
So by having that utility that's the core Then you start to sort of go concentric circles out from there.
00:23:01.837 --> 00:23:09.709
The utility for you and me is you and I sit down and we catch up and then as we're talking, you're like oh my gosh, you've just told me so many things.
00:23:09.709 --> 00:23:11.115
I'm never going to remember these things.
00:23:11.115 --> 00:23:13.038
This happened to me once when I was in LA.
00:23:13.038 --> 00:23:15.501
Someone said I'm never going to remember all this stuff.
00:23:15.501 --> 00:23:17.023
And I was like don't worry about it, I'll send you a stack.
00:23:17.023 --> 00:23:25.503
And as I left the bar, walking back to my hotel in that period of time, I made a stack and texted it.
00:23:25.503 --> 00:23:28.117
It was like so good to see you, here's the four things that we talked about.
00:23:28.117 --> 00:23:30.684
And I just get back this like head blown emoji.
00:23:30.684 --> 00:23:33.257
That was like hey, here's those things we talked about.
00:23:33.257 --> 00:23:43.680
And again, you don't have to have a bunch of random links, you can just hit save, save, save, save and it all goes into your Sacklist account and so that then becomes social utility for all of us.
00:23:44.101 --> 00:23:46.326
And then that third concentric circle is discovery.
00:23:46.405 --> 00:24:10.596
Now imagine you and me, and, let's say, a hundred of our connections, if I'm going to Italy and I've never been to Rome, let's say, and I start to do trip planning, I bet, between 100 of us and the people we know within a two degrees of separation, that I would get some pretty good recommendations, with notes and context, about what I want to go do and see in Rome.
00:24:10.938 --> 00:24:24.664
So now I just hit save, save, save, save, save, and I don't have to sort of spend an hour and a half like I normally do, I guess making a Notion document or a Google Doc or like putting it in Mac notes, which makes it still kind of hard to collaborate with.
00:24:25.046 --> 00:24:33.522
Like to my wife hey, bonnie, I made you a Notion, and she's like I don't really use that every day that I have to sign up and so there's this sort of like barrier.
00:24:33.522 --> 00:24:48.844
But this makes it super easy for us to collaborate on something like a stack and then, once we finish the trip, I just click a button and it shows up on my personal profile and then I can say on Instagram hey, check out this stack and here's all the places we went.
00:24:48.844 --> 00:25:13.936
And so it sort of cuts across all those lines of personal utility, social utility, then social discovery, and that's why I don't want to niche down, because I think there's something interesting here and not making an app just for travel or for restaurants, or for real estate or for pro gaming, but really finding something that sort of sits on top of everything, like a browser or email, I guess.
00:25:14.598 --> 00:25:16.923
Yeah, I love that, but, Kyle, shots fired.
00:25:16.923 --> 00:25:18.027
You called me out right there.
00:25:18.027 --> 00:25:30.768
For all my love, my deep love for Notion documents, for literally everything, and you're absolutely correct, sharing it with anyone who's not entrepreneurial is just like what is this notionso link and what am I supposed to do with it?
00:25:31.096 --> 00:25:31.878
Or keeping it up.
00:25:31.878 --> 00:25:37.837
How much time do you spend weekly or monthly keeping your Notion so perfect that your brain doesn't break?
00:25:37.837 --> 00:25:41.807
Because I love Notion and I was a huge Evernote user forever.
