June 19, 2024
870: THIS one strategy can transform your life, business, and PROFITABILITY w/ Lori Hardtke
Discover the financial strategies that took Lori Hartke from a solo IT managed service provider to a thriving entrepreneur, savoring success from the shores of Maui. Our esteemed guest Lori, not only pilots her Arizona-based business, ByteWize, Inc., remotely but also mentors at ITSP University, guiding others to scale their operations without bloating their staff. Our dynamic exchange dives into how she's harnessed the potent Profit First system, a financial philosophy that has shaped both her business acumen and personal wealth, guiding entrepreneurs towards fiscal stability and impressive profit margins.
Transform your business's financial health and learn the secrets to consistent profits and a stress-free tax season. Lori illustrates the practical implementation of Profit First, revealing a method involving separate accounts for income, profits, taxes, owner's pay, and operating expenses. Our dialogue demystifies the complexities of cash flow management, offering you a blueprint to replicate the sense of financial control and peace Lori experiences. As a bonus, our host Brian shares his own transformation story along the way, showcasing the profound impact of this methodology on crisis-proofing your finances.
Lori's approach extends beyond the numbers, emphasizing a well-rounded entrepreneurial lifestyle that defies the glorified hustle culture. She shares her journey of 16 years balancing client satisfaction with personal well-being, all while savoring the island life. This episode isn't just about the mechanics of financial systems; it's a masterclass in sculpting a business that enriches your life, ensuring that while you chase profitability, you never lose sight of living fully and preparing for the future. Join us for an episode packed with wisdom for those ready to turn their entrepreneurial dreams into reality.
ABOUT LORI
Lori Hardtke is the owner and president of ByteWize, Inc. Lori is not your typical entrepreneur; she's a solo MSP who's also a technology educator and author, specializing in highly effective technology & financial strategies for small businesses. One unique aspect of her Arizona based business is that she lives full time on Maui. Lori is passionate about sharing her expertise. She teaches a class called "How To Be A Super Successful Solo MSP" through ITSP University, helping other MSPs scale their business without needing to hire an army of employees.
As a Certified Profit First Professional, Lori is passionate about helping business owners minimize their financial stress and maximize their profitability. At the heart of her business and teachings is a commitment to proactively contribute not only to her clients' financial success but also to their emotional & physical well-being of being a entrepreneur—Health, Wealth & Happiness!
LINKS & RESOURCES
00:00 - Lori Hartke
08:26 - Managing Finances With Profit First
14:11 - Building a Profitable and Lifestyle-Friendly Business
23:17 - Entrepreneurial Maturity and Business Growth
36:56 - Guest Appreciation and Website Interaction
WEBVTT
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Hey, what is up?
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Welcome to this episode of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.
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As always, I'm your host, brian Lofermento, and we've got a guest today that I have been so excited to chat with, because this is an entrepreneur that I think in so many ways lives out the ideals that we're all searching for as to why we started our business and how we started our business and how we want to not only run our businesses, but run and live our lives.
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I think she is such an inspiration in so many different ways, not only as a subject matter expert, but in the way that she shows up as a person and as an entrepreneur.
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So let me tell you all about her.
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Her name is Lori Hartke.
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Lori is the owner and president of BiteWise Inc.
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Lori is not your typical entrepreneur.
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She's a solo IT managed service provider who's also a technology educator and author, specializing in highly effective technology and financial strategies for small businesses, one of which has actually changed my life and my businesses.
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So I'm excited for Lori to share so much of that here today.
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One unique aspect of her Arizona-based business is that she actually lives full-time on Maui, which she's gonna share some of that with us here today.
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Lori is passionate about sharing her expertise.
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She teaches a class called how to Be a Super Successful Solo MSP Through ITSP University, where she helps other IT managed service providers scale their business without needing to hire an army of employees which that's a spoiler alert.
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It's going to come back to lifestyle, so you'll definitely want to hear all of Lori's perspectives and stories and strategies here today.
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As a certified profit first professional, lori is passionate about helping business owners minimize their financial stress and maximize their profitability.
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At the heart of her business and teachings is a commitment to proactively contribute not only to her clients' financial success, but also to their emotional and physical well-being of being an entrepreneur through health, wealth and happiness.
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We all need this one.
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I'm not going to say anything else.
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Let's dive straight into my interview with Lori Partkey.
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With Lori Partkey.
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All right, lori, that was one of my favorite intros ever, which just says how excited I am that you're here, so welcome to the show.
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Thanks, brian, I am really honored to be on your show.
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Heck, yeah, obviously so much good stuff we're going to get into today, but first things first.
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We've got to go beyond the bio.
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Who the heck is Lori?
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How did you start doing all these amazing things that you get to do today?
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Well, I'm originally from Minnesota so you might hear some ooftas or you betchas, but I moved to Arizona in my early 20s.
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I started, lived there for about 26 years years and I started my IT company in 2008.
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And then, in 2013, we had an opportunity to move to Maui.
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So I learned how to operate my business remotely and I even was winning some new business remotely, and that was I was Zooming before zoom was a thing, and I was able to do things way, way before COVID.
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Even so, I wasn't really freaked out about COVID, like a lot of my colleagues were, you know.
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But I, on a personal note, I love to, I love to be outside, I walk, I try to walk every day.
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I've actually walked several half marathons and managed to make it through one full marathon.
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And then, you know, I like to cook and garden and just really keep busy with a variety of projects.
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But I've also had a, you know, real strong interest in business and making money or trying to figure out how to make money, and there was, you know.
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Unfortunately, that interest didn't really help my business become a money making machine and, you know, like a lot of business owners, I really I struggled to pay myself a decent salary and I had never I never really had enough money to cover expenses consistently, month after month, and I would shuffle money back and forth between my business and my personal account and one year I actually I apparently paid myself a little too much, because the next year I had to give myself a $12,000 cut in pay.
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And when you think about that, that's like, really, if I was working somewhere else, employed at a business, and they did that to me, I would probably quit.
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And then the other thing I would do is I would play that 0% credit card game, where I'd seek out 0% credit cards Cause I thought, for sure, you know, 12 to 18 months from now, I would have, uh, that, uh money, for sure, and you know when it would come due.
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Boy, I would struggle.
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I would always pay it off, but it was a struggle.
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So that game got really old.
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And then, in 2018, I heard about Profit.
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First I bought the book, I listened to it, but I didn't really do anything with it.
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And it wasn't until April of 2019, when I I like, let me give this a try and see what happens.
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And within the first four months I actually I had a 0% card due and I was able to pay it off in full and I still had money left over.
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And I'm like, okay, that's pretty cool.
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But the coolest thing came the following year, so about 12 months into profit first and I was able.
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Well, a year and a half I was able to pay myself six figures for the first time ever.
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And and that's when I'm like I'm sold I got to figure out a way to help others and I work closely with two other MSPs and we've been doing this for together for six years and I helped them implement Profit First and they started to see results.
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And then I'm like, okay, this is, I got to help others.
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And so last, last year, I became a certified Profit First professional and you know, it's it's been.
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It's pretty cool that my love for business, finance and tech kind of just all came full circle.
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Yeah, I love that overview for so many reasons, lori, but it is because it's really you alluded to it right there at the end of your answer which is it is a very unique intersection where all of these passions of yours have combined to create something that brings a lot of value to the world and, most importantly and it's something I want to make sure we touch on here today it contributes to the life that you want to live, which I think is so important.
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So, listeners I'm just going to call this out this early on in today's episode is that this is the real life stuff I mean you just heard from Lori Lori openly said that I think we need to talk about this more in the world of entrepreneurship that just because your business can bring in revenue, it doesn't mean anything about your profitability and it certainly doesn't mean anything about your ability to pay and provide for yourself.
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So, lori, so much of that that we're going to go into today, but I think it's really important to call out that your love and passion for Profit First, which is something that I share with you, is what enabled your business to grow even further, which has enabled your business to serve more clients and do more good in the world.
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So I guess I want to start at the fundamentals of Profit First For a lot of listeners who aren't aware of it.
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Laura, you and I are lucky that we found it and you get to be the beacon of hope for people who haven't heard about it yet.
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What is Profit First?
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Why did it make such a big impact in your life and business?
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Well, you know it's really.
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It's just a cash management system, so it's it's not like you have to understand.
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You know financials and you can.
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It brings clarity to the number, to your numbers, and you know you can make it as simple as you want it.
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But if you want to get the full benefits, you know you want to make sure that you're implementing it the right way and you know it really made a huge difference for me.
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I really I was working.
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I worked for 12 years.
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That's a long time to work and not get paid what you're worth, and you know the stats are pretty staggering.
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There's like 33.3 million small businesses, which is any business, that's 499 employees or less in the US and 30% run, break even and the other 30% lose money.
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You know profit first.
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It works for any, any size business in any industry and it's a proven you know method.
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So I can't speak enough about it.
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Yeah, which it's fun for me because we can actually talk about it, not in theory but, and not conceptually, but in practicality, because when we layer on the conversation with your own business, which is called bite wise which for a lot of people, laurie I'm going to ask for an overview from you about what an IT managed service provider company does, and then actually we'll start there and then we'll get into layering these two topics together and how they really have lifted each other.
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So what is an IT managed service provider?
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Well managed services is where we take all aspects of a small business's network and technology and we manage it for them, and that involves security and could be phones, and so we try to take the ease off of the business owner so that they can sleep at night and not worry about their technology failing.
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And that's kind of a little bit, then, where Profit First comes in too, because I know we all have had sleepless nights about our, you know, making payroll or, you know, do we have enough to keep going month after month, and so that's how, for me, the two kind of intersected.
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Yeah, I love that.
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Let's go down that path together, because you wrote something in your questionnaire as I was doing my research for today's episode, that it resonated all too deeply with me, lori, which is sometimes we have to rob Peter to pay Paul, and it's something that we all do with our business finances and our personal finances.
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Hopefully it's not something we all continue to do Like.
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For you and I, it changed through profit first, but what did that look like?
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What did life look like under BiteWise, when you didn't have that fundamental understanding and then crossed that bridge for us?
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What did it then look like?
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What does it look like under the Profit First methodology?
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Well, actually, when I teach my class, I have a graph.
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I'm very transparent and I show everybody my numbers, even how much I paid myself, and I show how I was all over the map.
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I was moving money, you know.
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I thought for sure I'd have enough money in my business account to cover everything, and then I, you know, two months later I'd be like, oh crap, I'm running short again.
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So I'd move money, then I move it back and I that's how I had to operate and then I implement profit first, and my chart is it's consistent because we get quarterly profit distributions.
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We also save for taxes, so you're you're able to make sure you have enough money in your accounts for taxes.
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And so it was night and day difference, and I love to keep track of everything, and so that was beneficial.
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I had no idea I would be in this role, but having that information now has been valuable and it just really truly paints a picture.
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Yeah, and to that point, I'm glad that you brought up the one word that we can all unite in, that we grimace when we hear it, which is taxes, and I remember pre-profit first.
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Yeah, it was always.
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Where am I going to pull that money from?
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Is it going to come from my personal savings?
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Is it going to come from my checking account?
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Is it going to come from my business checking account, which there was no such thing as an operating expenses account or any of those, whereas now, you're right, by the end of the year, I already have, in excess, saved up for what my tax bill will be.
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Lori, what does that look like?
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Because you and I obviously use this in our businesses.
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But listeners may be thinking you guys, what does this mean?
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What are you doing with this money?
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Where is it coming from and how are you distributing it?
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What does that distribution look like for people who have never intentionally allocated and set aside money?
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Yeah, so the one of the core starting points is you create five bank accounts.
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You'll have one which is your income account, and then you create one that's for profit, one that's for taxes, one that's for owner's pay and then also for operating expense.
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And when you get into a rhythm we establish a rhythm so like on the 10th and 25th, you will take whatever money is in your income account, because that's all it is is money coming into that account.
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And then we work with you to create an allocation percentage and you start out very small and it's very doable.
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And then you just on the 10th and 25th, you are going to allocate money into those other various core bank accounts and then, like I mentioned, every quarter you take half of what's in your profit account and you get to take that as a distribution and that's your bonus for all the hard work and effort and risk and everything that you're doing in your business.
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And then we also allocate the quarterly for taxes that you take some of that money out as well.
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Yeah, and I think that's a really important place for us to interject into this conversation here, laurie, about how important for you personally is this is one of the reasons why I so deeply respect the work that you do is that you're not just building businesses so that you give yourself a job.
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You live on Maui, you don't have a huge team which, as a fellow solopreneur for like 95% of my life, that's something that's so near and dear to my heart.
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Lori, what is it about the way that you structure your business?
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How much does your lifestyle play into your mindset and your strategies around how you want to grow?
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strategies around how you want to grow.
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Well, over the 16 years that I've been in business, I kind of came to realize that I'm going to build a business that works for me and I don't care.
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In our industry, in IT, we always are talking about how much revenue?
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How much revenue do you have?
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You know, we never talk about like net, net profit, and if we do, you know, in reality that's really hard to compare to, just because you don't know how much people are taking out of the business for personal use and things like that.
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So you'd really have to dive into everybody's numbers.
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But I I think that well, or what I ended up doing then is figuring out all of the things I didn't want.
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So I built my business on having my clients.
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For instance, I will only work with businesses that are open Monday through Friday, eight to five, and I don't work weekends.
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I did Don't get me wrong.
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I had some clients that were in the retail industry and I was working all the time and I'm like what am I doing?
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This isn't an and I purposely didn't want to hire employees.
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I didn't want W2.
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I used to be an IT manager and I just didn't want to.
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I do have a part time tech.
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I mean I will seek out help when I need it, but I'm a big person on process and procedures as well, so implementing some of this has taken a while, but it helps me build the life that I want, and I don't want to wait till I'm retired, and now I'm going to go and enjoy life.
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I want to enjoy life you know every day.
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Yeah, amen to that.
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I think it's such a powerful point that we can all embrace in our businesses and listeners.
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I hope that this is the catalyst for you to sit down and embrace Lori's mindset for your own business and your own life, because, ultimately, none of us are on the planet to run a business.
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We are here to live a good life now do I believe that entrepreneurship and business is the vehicle through which we can improve our lives and others lives?
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Absolutely, but we have to do it in a way that also honors ourselves and laurie.
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I think you're a living example of that, and I'm going to call one thing out very publicly I want to congratulate you on, because I don't think we celebrate longevity enough in the world of entrepreneurship 16 years of being in operation is no small feat, and it's something that I relate to.
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I started my first business in 2008, as well as I was a freshman in school, and I know how much I've personally grown and learned and developed along the way, which leads me to ask you this question, lori, because I love picking on experienced heads like yours where, what are some of those shifts?
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Because when I look back at my own journey, I come to think of the fact that I didn't know anything when I started.
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Whatever.
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I thought I knew I didn't.
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What are some of those things that in hindsight, you're just like gosh Lori, that's not the way it was that now you can see clearly.
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Well, I remember when I wanted to start my business, I was like, oh, this will just be great.
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You know, in IT they get paid big bucks and how hard can it be?
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And I just I can work whenever I want and I'll have all this.
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You know, flexibility and freedom.
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And, oh boy, that I was.
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That was so far from the truth, and so it.
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There's so many aspects of running a business, from getting your, you know, like just even sales tax and getting that all figured out, and then domain names and you know legal things, and there's so much to it It'll just it mind really.
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And that's where you know we do a lot of we I at least.
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For me, I kind of.
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I love business and I always have since I've been a kid, but I like, um, the whole, uh, you know what, what we can, what we can offer and do for for it's amazing.
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And to not be profitable and get paid what you're worth, that's a big disconnect for me and I feel like that has to change.
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And you know hoping, you know there's little baby steps people can take to implement profit first, and even if you just do that, you know and you're one step closer to being profitable and making your.
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You know, at the end that's the other thing too is you know your exit strategy and where are you taking this business?
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Are you going to sell it?
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Do you want to pass it on or merge with someone else?
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And you want to be profitable in order to get higher multiples when you go to sell.
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So there's so many reasons you know to really profitable in order to get higher multiples when you go to sell.
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So there's so many reasons you know to really dive in and be profitable.
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And so, with Profit First, it simplifies the cash flow, it's a method right, so it helps a lot.
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Yeah, for sure, laurie.
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I'll tell you what.
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I think that you so deeply embrace one of our core values and missions here at the One Entrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast, which is these types of transparent, real entrepreneur conversations.
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Not that we're going to find in YouTube videos where it's all about here's how I made a million dollars in 24 hours.
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There's enough of that stuff.
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But I want to talk about and you do talk so freely about those early trials and tribulations, and obviously so much of it leads to finding the light, which for both you and I Profit First has been a big inflection point in our journeys.
00:20:15.824 --> 00:20:21.365
But clearly, 16 years, you did something right up front, lori, even when you didn't know what you were doing.
00:20:21.365 --> 00:20:32.169
Talk to us about some of those early strategies that we can just applaud 16 years ago, lori, for not knowing what she didn't know, but still moving forward and providing value.
00:20:32.169 --> 00:20:34.479
I think so much of your professional career comes back to that.
00:20:34.479 --> 00:20:39.598
What were some of those early strategies that either intentionally or unintentionally worked out?
00:20:40.442 --> 00:20:46.523
Well, I think one of the things is that's what I was attracted to, to be a managed service provider.
00:20:46.523 --> 00:20:53.067
It never felt good when I worked at a company when someone would have a problem.
00:20:53.067 --> 00:20:55.122
I'm from Minnesota.
00:20:55.122 --> 00:20:58.482
We want everybody to be happy.
00:20:58.482 --> 00:21:03.441
When someone would have a problem, I'm like, oh gosh, let me help you.
00:21:03.441 --> 00:21:08.676
That was how a lot of IT people would make.
00:21:08.717 --> 00:21:19.859
Money is off of someone else's problems, and so the whole concept of managed services is why don't we put tools in place that will help prevent problems?
00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:25.196
And once I grasped that idea, I was like that's me, that's what I want to do.
00:21:25.196 --> 00:21:42.980
I want to help people prevent problems, and and so that that was pretty instrumental in early on when I decided to be an IT consultant, and so trying to just think of like things just happened in a way.
00:21:42.980 --> 00:21:47.393
So I can't like pinpoint certain things.
00:21:47.393 --> 00:21:50.318
Just, you know, I've always.
00:21:50.318 --> 00:21:53.247
I guess one big thing is I'm big on education.
00:21:53.247 --> 00:21:55.451
I'm always trying to learn something new.
00:21:55.451 --> 00:21:57.717
Is there a better way to do things?
00:21:57.717 --> 00:22:00.128
How can I be as efficient as possible?
00:22:00.128 --> 00:22:07.108
You know, stuff like that has really helped out, Just having good values and morals, I guess, too.
00:22:07.990 --> 00:22:27.067
Yeah, lori, I think those things are incredibly important to call out, and there are things that may not look sexy in a YouTube video title or in a podcast episode title, but this is the real stuff that drives businesses forward, and the only reason why you're here talking about 16 years of entrepreneurial experience is because of these building blocks.
00:22:27.067 --> 00:22:32.930
So I really appreciate this open insight into what's helped you succeed, because it's something that we can all replicate.
00:22:32.930 --> 00:22:42.548
I actually saw a graphic it went viral years ago where it said the 10 things we all have that contribute to success, and none of those things were about, like hacks or strategies.
00:22:42.548 --> 00:22:51.753
It was about hard work, being on time, being of service to others, and I think those really are the fundamental building blocks of successful businesses, which you mentioned.
00:22:52.015 --> 00:22:57.532
One of those things that we can all use to our advantage, which is technology, lori, it's obviously near and dear to your heart.
00:22:57.532 --> 00:22:59.673
You're a technology educator and author.
00:22:59.673 --> 00:23:05.111
You also use technology in your businesses.
00:23:05.111 --> 00:23:08.094
Of course, scared about technology, or on the flip side?
00:23:08.094 --> 00:23:17.772
Actually, I want to throw this at you is that some people technology gets in their way because they become so obsessed with the millions of options with tech that they can't get out of their own way.
00:23:17.772 --> 00:23:19.136
What's your perspective on that?
00:23:19.664 --> 00:23:21.169
Yeah, I've lived that too.
00:23:21.169 --> 00:23:37.392
That's one of our biggest problems in our industry is we love shiny new tools and gadgets, and you know I have a room full of monitors and different things, and so I've always had that interest.
00:23:37.392 --> 00:23:39.256
I like to see what makes things tick.
00:23:39.256 --> 00:23:42.672
Uh, you know, taking a computer apart, putting it back together, stuff like that.
00:23:42.672 --> 00:23:47.828
But um, yeah, there's um that from from a technology point of view.
00:23:47.828 --> 00:23:57.117
Like I'm not real big on social media, I see so many people get consumed with Facebook and stuff and I don't have that kind of time.
00:23:57.117 --> 00:23:59.773
I never really get involved with it.
00:24:03.365 --> 00:24:05.210
Tim Ferriss, the 4-Hour Workweek.
00:24:05.210 --> 00:24:09.398
I read that book early on when I started my business and that kind of always resonated with me.
00:24:09.398 --> 00:24:18.675
I'll just keep asking people questions, what's going on in the world, and I learn a lot that way, so I don't really spend a whole lot of time getting consumed with the.
00:24:18.675 --> 00:24:37.838
You know everything that's going on in the world to an extent, but so when it comes to technology it is hard, and I've learned to vet vendors and their products pretty well.
00:24:37.838 --> 00:24:50.518
So that's one of my key things that I teach is and even vetting your clients and making sure it's a good fit, because in the beginning I was.
00:24:51.482 --> 00:24:54.098
I would take anybody that was willing to write me a check.
00:24:54.098 --> 00:24:58.316
So I was working in the residential sector and I was.
00:24:58.316 --> 00:25:06.376
I couldn't I couldn't have, you know, charge somebody really what I should have been charging them, and so it wasn't a good fit.
00:25:06.376 --> 00:25:11.385
So those are all of those hard lessons that I had learned over over all those years.
00:25:11.385 --> 00:25:29.432
But the technology is, is can be key, and not trying to overdo it and feel like you I mean I struggle with it too, to be honest trying to find that perfect task tool, you know, to help me be organized better.
00:25:29.432 --> 00:25:35.854
I'm always thinking there's got to be a better product, because it seems like not one product can do everything I ever wanted to do.
00:25:36.615 --> 00:25:44.621
So, um, that is hard, uh so, yeah, laurie, it's funny, I I so deeply resonate with that.
00:25:44.621 --> 00:25:46.347
I don't know if you're familiar with app sumo.
00:25:46.347 --> 00:25:47.632
Have you ever visited app sum?
00:25:47.632 --> 00:25:57.057
Okay, so AppSumocom is a website of all the latest SaaS tools software as a service tools and they're all lifetime deals.
00:25:57.057 --> 00:26:05.717
And so, for me, once a week, I'm just scrolling through AppSumo for the very reason that you stated, which is there's got to be one tool that does all these things that I need it to.
00:26:05.717 --> 00:26:08.233
And, yeah, quickly, you realize there's not ever one tool that does everything that we need it to.
00:26:08.233 --> 00:26:10.724
And yeah, quickly, you realize there's not ever one tool that does everything that we need it to.
00:26:10.724 --> 00:26:14.433
And I think it brings about a very important entrepreneurial lesson.
00:26:14.574 --> 00:26:23.613
Lori, here on this show, we talk so much about entrepreneurial maturity, and I always make the argument that entrepreneurial maturity does not come with age, it comes from experience.
00:26:23.613 --> 00:26:35.894
And here you are with 16 years of entrepreneurial experience, and to me, your entrepreneurial maturity shines through in the fact that you just alluded to one of my favorite quotes, which is ships don't sink because of the water around them.
00:26:35.894 --> 00:26:46.536
Ships sink because of the water that gets in them, and for you, that could mean consuming all the latest shiny objects, or it could mean emotional wellbeing, physical wellbeing.
00:26:46.536 --> 00:26:54.417
I know that all of these things are incredibly important to you, so I'd love for you to offer some of that guidance in entrepreneurial maturity to our listeners here.
00:26:54.417 --> 00:26:58.694
What is it that you use to focus on your emotional well-being?
00:26:58.694 --> 00:27:05.198
To use that as an example, because it is so easy to get bogged down and this is not an easy journey for us.
00:27:05.765 --> 00:27:07.249
So shed some light onto that for us.
00:27:07.249 --> 00:27:10.657
Well, for sure, I've had a lot of ups and downs.
00:27:10.657 --> 00:27:12.972
I mean there's times where it's like, what am I doing?
00:27:12.972 --> 00:27:16.174
I, you know, not get paid a whole lot.
00:27:16.174 --> 00:27:24.778
This was before, profit First, and so when I would feel like that, I'm like I should just quit and just go work for somebody else.
00:27:24.778 --> 00:27:26.491
But I knew that's not what I really wanted.
00:27:26.491 --> 00:27:33.766
So, yeah, it's a difficult journey, not what I really wanted.
00:27:33.766 --> 00:27:39.655
So, yeah, it's a difficult journey and I and I can't help but kind of go back to profit first, because it really has given me really a sense of control.
00:27:39.655 --> 00:27:44.707
I feel confident, more confident than ever now.
00:27:46.308 --> 00:27:52.055
So the emotional side of running a business, you know.
00:27:52.055 --> 00:27:59.162
And then even now it's like, you know, I'm getting up there in age but I don't really ever want to retire.
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