WEBVTT
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Hey, what is up?
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Welcome to this episode of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.
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As always, I'm your host, brian LoFermento, and you longtime listeners already know that my favorite topic to talk about is, for sure, marketing.
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Marketing powers all of our businesses.
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Without marketing, we just kind of have a hobby that we spend our time on.
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Marketing is what gets us in front of the people that we're looking to serve, and that's why I'm excited about today's guest, because she not only loves talking about marketing, but she uses the term performance marketing Marketing that has to achieve a result and has a purpose.
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I'm excited to get into all of that with today's incredible entrepreneur.
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Her name is Marina Femina.
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Marina is an experienced results-driven marketer and she's an ex-Amazon employee who's passionate about all things performance marketing.
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Based in Seattle, she and her business partner, sandra started their company Marketing Works in early 2024 to help businesses grow using the most effective digital marketing tactics.
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Yeah, so we're not just talking high-level strategy today.
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If you wanna know about the exact tactics to use to actually grow your business, well, marina's got you covered in today's episode.
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They first met while they were working at Amazon, together managing annual media budgets.
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Up to you know, just a casual $60 million to support warehouse hiring in over 2,500 facilities across North America, and this is where Marina got to see how many different paid channels operate at scale and what actually works.
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Hence their company name Marketing Works.
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I'm so excited about today's conversation so I'm not going to say anything else.
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Let's dive straight into my interview with Marina Fomina.
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All right, marina, I am so very excited to have you here with us today.
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First things first.
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Welcome to the show.
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Thank you.
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Brian, I'm excited to be here.
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Heck, yes, likewise, I almost dropped a casual Privyet on you, but then I was just like I don't know where we're going to go from there.
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Once you get me with Cocktailah, I don't know where to go.
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Well, you've got the basics covered and based on our Privyet and Cocktailah Do, based on our privyet and kankdila, do you know the third one?
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What else would it be?
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I obviously had a show.
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I'm covered.
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I'm always good in Russian.
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That is exactly it.
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I think that one, two, three will get you into many doors in Russia and into many fun adventures.
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And there's one more.
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I think I have to share one more word that I think will unlock ultimate adventure in Russia.
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Can I do that?
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Drop it on us.
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Okay, when anybody proposes an idea for hey, do you want to do this?
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And let's say you're a foreigner traveling Russia and you don't understand.
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You don't have enough Russian to understand what exactly they said.
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Instead of just saying da, which is a very boring yes, which I think most people will know, you should say давай.
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Давай.
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Let's go, Marina.
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That's the perfect segue.
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Let's go, Давай.
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I'm loving it.
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Давай, All right.
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Well then you've got to kick things off.
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I always ask guests at the beginning of these episodes to take us beyond the bio.
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I want to hear all these cool things that you're doing, so I'm also going to.
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I guess listeners are going to learn a little bit of Russian today, because I am asking you что ты делаешь.
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I love it.
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So what am I doing?
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So for those that did not understand что ты делаешь that's what am I doing.
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I'm going to take you guys back.
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I'm going to use a segue of my Russian heritage to take you back to when I first learned about marketing.
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So my mom is a serial entrepreneur, despite having lived in the Soviet Union for a long time.
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I was born in the Soviet Union.
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We immigrated when I was 10.
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My mom loves new ideas, big ideas.
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Right when the opportunity started back in the 90s, she started working with Austrian companies, central Asian companies.
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Eventually, that work got us to the United States.
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Point being, when I was 19 years old, my mom decided that what Seattle really needed was a crepe restaurant, and in Russian this is blinchik.
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And so she started a restaurant called Olga's Russian Blinchik.
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Can you guess?
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Her name is Olga.
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So when I was a 19 year old, I was really passionate about how do I get my mom's restaurant to have all of the customers that we want, all of the customers that we need.
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Our food is so good.
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Just more people need to know about it.
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And so, in that young state, I started doing all sorts of things.
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I went to local businesses.
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I talked to different delivery drivers, I put up posters all over town, I called universities, organizations, created events, and I would try all these different things.
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And what I really, really struggled with is saying I have all these ideas, I'm trying all these things, what the heck is actually working?
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And once in a while, something would work.
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We'd have 20 customers, 40 customers for an event, and so the big question in my mind was how can I put a pattern on all of this, how can I size it up?
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How can I quantify it?
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How can I systematize it?
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I'm sure all of this chaos of activity can translate into an actual plan.
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And years later, I was delighted to discover the field of performance marketing.
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And what is performance marketing?
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It is data-driven marketing.
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In my view, it's essentially a way to throw a net of patterns across all of the chaos of human actions and messages and channels and all of the things that you might be doing with marketing.
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It's a way to systematize it and to use those knackeds, those flukes that work so well for your business and to scale them.
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Marina, I love that overview for so many reasons.
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First and foremost because it shows that even at a young age you were hustling, and I'm the son of an immigrant mom and so I relate so much to the American dream Come to this country and find the opportunities and it's something that, fortunately, you and I were introduced to at very young ages.
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You especially with your your own family's entrepreneurial endeavor.
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I love that backstory, but really there's something you said at the end of the interview that didn't go unnoticed for me, and you talked about those flukes.
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How do we get those flukes to keep working for us?
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And, and when I hear about those flukes, where my entrepreneurial mind goes after 16 years of doing this entrepreneurial journey, is that flukes are great because they only happen if we try things.
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That's part of the entrepreneurial journey.
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It's part of growing a business is first trying things so that we can find those flukes and then, as you said, notice those patterns and ask ourselves how can we recreate those?
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Talk to me about that approach to marketing, because I feel like so many people.
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We get emails from listeners where they say can you ask our guests or your guests what the perfect marketing channels are for my business?
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What should I run for ads?
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What should my landing page look like?
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Marina, I want to start out first with that fluky approach to trying things.
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What's your approach to even beginning when it comes to marketing?
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Love the question.
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Thank you, Brian.
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I may have a several part answer here, so bear with me and let's dive into any aspect of it.
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A lot of the businesses we work with.
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They have really, really big dreams, and because my business partner, Sandra, and I, because we come from an Amazon background, we're really used to working at scale, and so you talked about the large budgets, we talked about the large facilities, and here we are, as business owners, working with businesses that are very different than Amazon as a customer, right?
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So there we were working from the inside out.
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Here we're talking with business owners.
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A lot of our customers have really big dreams.
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They want to go from household down the street to household name, and so usually what that means is they have a lot of ideas they listen to.
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They have a lot of ideas for how to get the word out.
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They listen to a lot of online material.
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There's a lot of gurus overnight gurus, right.
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They listen to a lot of online material.
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There's a lot of gurus overnight gurus, right that will say you got to do this, you got to do that, and they have a hard time pulling all of that together.
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So when we start working with anybody, so I'm not going to have a here's what you do.
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One, two, three follow my answer.
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That's going to be way too simplistic, but I will share a couple of frameworks that I personally find really helpful For any business.
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I think one helpful framework to work with is I'm going to hate myself for saying this, but the marketing funnel, and why I really really don't like the marketing funnel is because it introduces it's a little bit too linear and so I'm going to introduce the idea of marketing concentric circles.
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So if you think of the funnel, if you've seen the funnel, but if you think about it as circles and you're in the middle and your customers that you already have are right next to you, they're close, they're buying from you.
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The people that buy a lot are a little bit closer.
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The people a little bit further away maybe they're looking at your business as a potential solution to their problem.
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And people further than that, maybe they've heard about you or maybe they know that your kind of business exists.
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And then the people further outside of that so think concentric circles.
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People outside of that don't even know that you exist, Don't even know that there is a solution to their problem, Right.
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So we like to think about how do we build from the inside out or, if you like, the funnel, then how do you fill the funnel.
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Other people will use words like bottom of the funnel approach, and so when you're starting from, who knows about you?
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What do they love about you?
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What problem are you solving for them?
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What do they say about it?
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Is there an aspect of your business that really resonates with them, Whether you're a service or you're selling a product?
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What else are they buying?
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We like to walk our clients through that mental framework of how do you build from the inside out, Because the simple rule there is that the closer somebody else to you, the more likely they're going to convert.
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If they're super far out there, it's going to take a lot more to convert them.
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I think in a lot of the marketing world we're used to hearing I can't say how many times I've heard the phrase it has the phrase Research shows it takes X number of times to convert somebody to your business and that number varies as many times as there are people.
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So that number varies a lot and I want to challenge that idea.
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It's not that it takes X amount of exposures, it's truly that they need to walk through that, from being on the outside of that concentric circle to closer to your business through a series of exposure as part of it, but also knowing that what you offer actually solves something for them.
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And so, when it comes to performance marketing, I will talk about Google.
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So Google is where close to 90% of the internet traffic goes to find answers to their problems.
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Google has so much, so much information, and they're able to to.
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This is really the clever part about when, when you begin marketing outside of the people that already know you.
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Right, that's the point.
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When somebody comes to to us and they say, hey, I've got my customers, I've got a great product.
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I don't know how to scale, I don't know how to go beyond that.
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I know there's more people out there.
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How who do I talk to?
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Is it people between the ages of 18 and 35?
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Is it people that live in urban versus rural areas and those for the most part in today's world?
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I would say those are, in my opinion, largely obsolete in terms of concepts, because, really, what you're looking at is people's behavior relative to your brand, relative to your product, and people's actions on the internet, which is where digital marketing comes in.
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The power of Google is that it can see so much of that information.
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It can use those signals what does a conversion look like, what actions do they take?
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And it can find more people like them In meta ads as well.
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You're going to have lookalike audiences.
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You're going to have ways to build out audience groups based on the people that are kind of like your customers already.
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Yeah, marina, hearing that overview from you.
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Obviously this is such a beautiful blend of both strategic and tactical stuff and, trust me, we're going to go there in today's conversation.
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But what I really admire the fact that you called out the.
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I've heard anywhere from seven touch points to 14 touch points.
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I'm so glad that you called that statistic out there.
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78% of statistics are made up on the spot anyway, so who knows what the real number is and so, with that in mind, marina, I think a lot of people think of marketing merely as those touch points.
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Okay, if you're telling me I need to get in front of my potential clients or customers seven times, where do I get those seven touch points from?
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And sure, google's one and Facebook ads might be another.
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There's so many different ways, but it sounds to me the way that you answered that question is you went straight to using those concentric circles to say, hey, we're actually guiding people towards us, kind of like that gravitational force.
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With that in mind, it sounds to me like marketing is a process to you rather than the touch points.
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Talk to us about that approach to it and how marketing shows up in continuing service of the people that we bring into our orbit.
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I love that, thank you.
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I like the idea of the concentric circles and how you mentioned that.
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It was almost a magnet.
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I think that's a really, really great way to think about it.
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And if we lean further into that concentric circle idea, the mindset of the people that are furthest away, let's take an example of, let's say, you sell snowboards online.
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I'm just making this up on the spot.
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But if you sell snowboards, people that are going to be really really far out, even outside of that circle, are people that, uh, don't go outside, they don't go, they don't.
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People a little bit closer in they're going to be outdoor enthusiasts that enjoy the sport of snowboarding.
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People a little bit closer in, they're going to be in market for an actual snowboard.
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And then people actually on your website, they're going to be looking or learning about your brand, whether it's through social media or something else.
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They're going to be learning about your specific product and whether that's the right product for them.
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What I want to highlight is that within each circle there's a different thought process, there's a different gate that somebody needs to be convinced of.
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So if somebody is looking at your board, they're probably looking at is this the kind of board that will help take me to the next level, or is this the kind of board that fits my budget?
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Is this the kind of board that looks amazing?
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It has the kind of art that expresses my individuality?
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Is it from a brand that I know has a really quality product?
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Everybody in those circles is going to have a slightly different thought process and gate and question that needs to be answered, and so if you're talking to people in the really really broader circle that you know are outdoor enthusiasts, all you may need to do is show an amazing video of somebody writing the board and talk about.
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If somebody, for example, supports really has a lot of value around supporting the environment, you can talk about the values of the company that makes that snowboard quick snippet of a video and that gets awareness out.
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But if somebody is evaluating, is this the right product for me, or which product is right for me, the questions they're going to be answering are very different.
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What's my shoe size?
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How long is the board that you offer isn't going to get here in time so that I can actually get there.
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They're going to be much more tactical, and so I would encourage anybody that's thinking about the marketing strategies is think about what questions your customers at each of those gates needs to have answered and build your marketing around answering those questions, whether it's inspirational or more, something practical like when is this going to ship so it can get to me?
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Yeah, marina, hearing you talk about those, obviously you think so clearly about the different ways that we serve people at those different gates.
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And so, with that in mind, I guess my question is, with my listener cap on thinking about all the listeners who want to grow their own businesses is well, who should I even be targeting?
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I can target people all the way out who don't even know that they're in the market for a snowboard just yet.
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All the way to people who are proactively right now in that buying decision, who are probably jumping on Google and saying where do I buy a snowboard?
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Obviously we can target them and serve them at all different parts of that funnel.
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Is it more expensive?
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Are there different considerations?
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What's your take on what that sweet spot is for how we find them, when we find them and where we find them?
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Yeah, that's a really great question, brian.
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So I would always advise people to start from the inside out.
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Or again, if you think about the funnel, start from the inside out.
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Or again, if you think about the funnel, fill the funnel model.
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So the people that are closest to you or at the bottom of the funnel, if people are searching actively, they're in the ready to buy mode and that is where you're going to have the most, the highest conversions.
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And you need to be the most tactical with showing the price, the shipping, making sure you're showing up for the terms.
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When somebody says snowboard best snowboard for people who like to ride fast, or for best snowboard for beginners, those are common terms that you might see people search for.
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So when you're in those spots, that's where you want to start, because people are already ready to buy.
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A lot of times you will notice it's much cheaper to advertise to a much broader audience.
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When you think about the per person impression with video or you're going to have a great luck with display advertising or some types of social media advertising where you're talking to a lot of people and you're not overlaying a whole lot of targeting on top of that.
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But if you're looking for the highest conversion, which is where I would say start investing your money.
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If you've never paid for advertising before, start with Google search ads, google shopping ads, if you're looking for that immediate conversion because you're going to get the highest conversion.
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There is one tactic I want to lean into for a moment.
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It's the principle.
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I call it the explore-exploit principle.
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When it comes to any of these tactics, and what that really means is when you're launching, let's say, a search ad in a shopping ad on Google to people who are ready to buy, then my advice would be structuring it in a way where you can get immediate learnings.
00:19:50.605 --> 00:20:00.992
So if you're doing a search ad for example, 50% of your budget on search, 50% on shopping then see which one converts better.
00:20:00.992 --> 00:20:18.762
Structure your initial launch in such a way so that there's always something you can learn, because in the next iteration let's say, two weeks later or a month later, depending on how much data you've gathered in that time you will have a much clearer read on where that initial conversion comes in.
00:20:18.883 --> 00:20:29.163
When it comes to smaller businesses, smaller budgets looking to grow, the beauty of performance marketing is that, and all it means is just data-driven marketing.
00:20:29.163 --> 00:20:36.451
But the beauty there is that it gives you a foothold of data to then inform your next decision.
00:20:36.451 --> 00:20:41.835
So when we work with a lot of clients, we typically do this on a monthly basis.
00:20:41.835 --> 00:20:46.346
We sit down and we look at here's all the products that we advertised.
00:20:46.346 --> 00:20:48.382
We advertise them in the same way.
00:20:48.795 --> 00:21:05.988
The learning we wanted, our goal in structuring it this way was to understand which product actually has the most resonance with the people out there on the internet, who is most likely to buy, which webpage is set up in a way that enables that buying so easily for them.
00:21:05.988 --> 00:21:11.826
And so at the end of the month, if you structure it in a way where you can learn something, then you can use that learning.
00:21:11.826 --> 00:21:12.708
So you're exploring.
00:21:12.708 --> 00:21:16.001
So that's the explore part of that cycle You're learning about.
00:21:16.041 --> 00:21:18.207
Here's the 10 products we put out.
00:21:18.207 --> 00:21:22.324
There Looks like product number two, three and five did incredible.
00:21:22.324 --> 00:21:23.386
They carried the campaign.
00:21:23.386 --> 00:21:33.279
Then the next month, you use that learning to then exploit it, and it's a cycle that goes back and forth where I've seen it really effective.
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:56.628
So in that case, as you would say, okay, if we just want to drive profit for the business, then we can double down on products two, three and five or whatever ones that produced and we can lower the budget to half, for example, on the other ones, and you see if that actually works out for your business.
00:21:56.628 --> 00:22:01.862
There's a few levers that can be super helpful for looking at that, but that's the principle.
00:22:02.423 --> 00:22:17.463
Yeah, and it all comes back to really what we started this conversation with, which is trying things, looking for those patterns, and it just seems to me hearing you talk about this methodical, strategic approach, is that you're allowing yourself to gather data to then make more informed decisions.
00:22:17.463 --> 00:22:25.082
So I really appreciate these insights, although at the same time, marina, I can imagine a lot of listeners are thinking how am I going to navigate all this stuff on my own?
00:22:25.082 --> 00:22:36.085
Which is, of course, why businesses like yours exists, and having you here on the show today I've been really excited, because I know that part of the way that you and Sandra operate your business is you also offer fractional CMO services.
00:22:36.085 --> 00:22:48.487
Now I will tell you, as the host of a business podcast, I've seen this term fractional a little bit on the rise in the past 18 months in particular, but a lot of people still don't realize what a fractional CMO looks like in their business.
00:22:48.487 --> 00:22:54.003
Talk to us about that fractional approach and how it differs from the traditional agency model.
00:22:55.426 --> 00:22:59.182
That's a really great question and interesting to hear about the rise of that.
00:22:59.182 --> 00:23:13.342
We've noticed that as well, and when we first wanted to put a word on what is it that we do and what is it that we offer, that is the term that really cinched it all together and I love that.
00:23:13.342 --> 00:23:35.644
So what that is, I think everybody will be familiar with what a traditional CMO in a company would do and that would be, just, very plainly speaking, it'd be somebody that oversees all of the marketing activity and knows everything that goes on in marketing, from creative to all the different channel marketing, to budgets that would get used there, etc.
00:23:35.644 --> 00:23:42.651
To potentially the customer cycle, lifecycle and what happens after you acquire customers.
00:23:42.651 --> 00:23:43.513
So customer engagement.
00:23:43.513 --> 00:23:45.498
So it could be any of those things or any combination.
00:23:45.498 --> 00:23:45.719
Right.
00:23:47.061 --> 00:24:01.617
When it comes to the fractional CMO service that we offer and why this is different than a lot of agencies, this really stems from Sandra's and my background living I will say living within Amazon, because it's very all consuming.
00:24:01.617 --> 00:24:05.426
I was there for a decade and Sandra was there for eight years.
00:24:05.426 --> 00:24:15.315
So together there for eight years, so together that is a lot of Amazon-like mindset and training.
