999: TRANSFORMING DESIGN and branding through real-world experiences w/ Mikelle Morrison & Nick Longo

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Hey, what is up?

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Welcome to this episode of the Entrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.

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As always, I'm your host, brian LoFermento, and this is a very special episode in our podcast history, not only because it's episode 999.

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This is the last of our first thousand episodes in our show's history Eight years of hard work, eight years of incredible conversations with amazing entrepreneurs and that's why today we're not bringing you one amazing guest and entrepreneur.

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We're bringing you two incredible guests and they're also fellow podcast hosts, which gets me so excited.

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These are two incredibly talented people who are so passionate at all the things that they do, and they are so brilliant when it comes to all things design and how to build a brand and how to create memorable experiences for our customers.

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We're all going to learn so much from today's guests, so let me tell you all about them.

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Their names are Mikkel Morrison and Nick Longo.

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Together, they host the Deeply Graphic Design Cast, which is aimed for new and seasoned creatives.

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For over 10 years they've been on the air.

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I've personally tuned into their podcast.

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What they're doing there is so incredible.

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They started out as just doing live streams and taking questions live on the air with people to doing incredible interviews and what's really incredible to me about the way that Mikkel and Nick show up in their businesses and with their podcast and all the work that they put into the world is that this is something that's so complex.

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The world of design, the world of creativity, the world of brands there's so many ways to talk about them.

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There's so many ways to showcase them, but these are two entrepreneurs that will get you excited to do the work in your own business and deeply connect with your customers.

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So I honestly, I'm excited about this one.

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I'm grateful for this one.

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So I'm not going to say anything else.

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Let's dive straight into my interview with Mikkel Morrison and Nick Longo.

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All right, mikkel and Nick, I'm so grateful for both of you to be here with us today.

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First things first.

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Welcome to the show.

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Thank you, that was an incredible intro.

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Let's do it again, right?

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Heck, yeah.

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Hey, I'm down for it.

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Let's do it another 999 times, and then some.

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But that was seamless, thank you.

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No, it's really fun to have both of you on, not only because you're incredibly talented, but I think there's something that goes into hosting a podcast, and you both have been at it over 10 years on the air.

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I think this sort of longevity we need to celebrate.

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An entrepreneurship so much more.

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So, gosh, I want to go be behind the scenes.

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Usually, I say beyond the bio, but with both of you I'm going to say behind the scenes, who's Mikel, who's Nick?

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Take us beyond there.

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Okay, great, yeah, I'll go first, if that's okay with you, nick.

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I'm Mikkel, I'm owner and designer lead for MKM Design and I've been doing this since 2008 on my own, first as a native graphic designer, saying yes to every single inquiry that came my way, hungry, hungry, hungry for any given project.

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And now it's transitioned into a consultative role where I'm working with a number of collaborative business team members and sometimes I'm not even touching files, sometimes I miss it and I ask can I please get in before presenting please?

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And so now it ranges a fair amount and keeps me on my toes.

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No, given, two days are the same, and I think that's why the longevity is in place.

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To be honest with you, nick, and I have been running like you had mentioned, brian our own podcast called the Deeply Graphic Design Cast for a very long time, and it has transitioned absolutely itself through and through.

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In the beginning, it was very, very much prior to the pandemic, so we weren't competing with a ton as we are today, and that had its benefits.

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But it also is wonderful to have its advantages, knowing that we have competitive edge with our show now and we're learning a lot, and Nick is both in front and behind the scenes for us, thankfully, so he can talk a little bit about his business as well as the show from his light.

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Cool, great.

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Oh, we should, we should.

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We should be writing all this stuff down.

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This is great.

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I love it, including his intro, but uh, hi my name is.

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Nick, my name, including his intro.

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But, uh, hi everybody, my name is nick.

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My name is nick logo.

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I'm based here in los angeles, california.

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Um, I got my start as a graphic designer and a brand developer, moved my way into what became, uh, a role that I had for almost 15, 20 years, uh, in the toy industry and was designing, manufacturing, uh, for all the fun you know, uh, tentpole franchises and entertainment and movies, things like that.

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And if it wasn't for this podcast as a listener I was a listener of our Deep Blue Graphic podcast.

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At the time I was considering leaving that job and starting my own business.

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So that happened about 12 years ago and left the job, started my own agency.

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We do branding for mostly food and beverage and restaurant.

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It's just the niche that has kind of naturally organically happened for me here and I love.

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That's just what I love to do the most.

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And then on the side, I also am a instructor and professor at my school, where I went to school here in Cal State University, northridge, and I love giving back.

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I love being able to teach our next generation everything that they would possibly want to know.

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So the podcast thing was great for me because I discovered our podcast as a listener, loved that.

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I heard Mikkel and our previous host, wes that, talking about starting their own business, becoming that entrepreneurial person that I really never heard of anybody talking about it, regardless of industry, right.

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So when they were down a host, I wrote to them and next thing I know I was a guest and then next thing I know I was a co-host.

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So that was almost 11 years ago I think Somewhere around there it was yeah it has been, it has been.

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Isn't that crazy?

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So I think somewhere around there it was yeah, it has been, it has been.

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Isn't that crazy?

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So that's our story.

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Yeah, I love that overview from both of you, Although I hear it with just one ounce of regret that I always have Anytime.

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I have incredibly talented visual creatives like you both on, and the one regret is that I've seen your work and it blows my mind and I want listeners to see it right now and the format of a podcast.

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Obviously they're listening to us right now they can't see your work the way that I can.

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We're going to drop those links, listeners, you already know they're in the show notes so you want to just click through and see them.

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But I want to ask you both this because I, when I think about the framing of today's conversation.

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In our episode we talk about design and it's so easy to make design synonymous with creativity and a lot of people have that limiting belief of, well, I'm not creative, and just going deep into both of your agencies and the way that your work shows up in the world, it's so much more than design and so much more than creativity.

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It feels like I'm underselling it just using those words.

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So I want to ask you it's a broad question because I want to see what direction you both take it in.

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What does design mean to both of you when you're building these epic brands that each of you have created on your own with your own agencies?

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What actually goes into it and how much of an impact is just creativity for people who say, well, I'm not creative, versus all the other stuff?

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yeah, that's so great that you honed in on that.

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Yeah, it was very interesting and thanks for doing that, because I think we talk about it so much that we don't think of it in a lot of ways the way you just mentioned it, and I really appreciate you saying it that way.

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I would say the best thing I can say is the first step would be I'm not an artist, I'm a commercial artist and I think that's a huge understanding to know that what I create is for commerce, it's for business, it's for it's persuading someone to click, subscribe or buy right.

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That's literally what our design world is and it just so happens to be a creative field because of all of our tools and everything you get.

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But I I think it's changing so much with technology and I'm sure we'll talk a lot about AI.

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But even without that, the fact that I don't consider myself an artist but I can thrive as a creative in our industry should kind of lessen that fear of anybody wanting to get into the creative and design world.

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That's kind of how I see it, because the tools are so incredibly advanced now and now you're just more of a strategic problem solver and you do it through a way of visual storytelling.

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So that's kind of like how I like to kind of say it what about you, mikkel?

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I like that and I don't think that there's a right way to answer the question either and it's probably very much subjective based on you used the word niche from before.

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Part of the reason our show is so diverse and incredibly beneficial to listeners across the range and not targeting some through and through is that I'm, by and large, a digital media designer, a website lead designer.

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I take a lot of responsibility when it comes to UI, visual design, transitioning the brand into that digital work.

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So with that, there are no traditional aspects to designing.

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You know you think of artwork, you think of crafts, you think of hands-on, you know painting and working with a true physical palette and by and large every day, all day, I'm working with digital palettes.

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So it's true, brian mentioned from behind the scenes, the design component of any given project, from kickoff until closing, where testing for my role starts.

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That testing phase starts with user experience.

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There's a massive discovery phase, a huge research phase, whether it be user research and or competitive analysis, and then, once the conceptual phase kicks in, there's a great deal of production.

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So the conceptual phase really is quite small compared to these other phases of any given project.

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And then, once you implement anything that goes live and launches in front of users' eyes.

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That's where testing takes place and with what embodies.

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That phase are a number of different uses, ranging anywhere from my parents that aren't like any millennial using the internet, down to those that are the ages of my oldest nieces and nephews that don't use the internet desktop nearly at all.

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So it's been very gratifying and, to say the least, interesting to understand what to double down on and, surprisingly, what's not working at all.

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So the design aspect to any given project for my business is small to medium, that phase of itself.

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There's a ton of consultant tasking and phasing and holding hands and walking the client through the process.

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They're not supposed to know how it goes, so a lot of it entails explaining the process at the forefront before that discovery phase kicks in.

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So hopefully that helps.

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Yeah, what really stands out to me in the way that both of you answered that question actually is you both went to the medium, or even the outcome, where, nick, you said I'm not just designing things like an artist does, I'm doing it commercially to get people to click.

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Mikkel, you jumped straight to the user experience, ui, ux, which is something that we're all familiar with.

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That when we're sitting down to say I'm just going to really simplify it, I need a logo, we don't think about the purpose of all the things that we're doing.

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I want to get inside your minds because it just seems like you're so outcome driven, you're so results focused and that's why you're successful in the work that you do.

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How does that differ from what we, the consumers?

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I'm lumping myself in because I've never been on your side of the table, because I, for sure, am not as creatively experienced or skilled as either of you.

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So when I talk to designers, I'm just like here's what I think I want.

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I guess I'm going to leverage the Henry Ford quote right now where he says if I asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse, and obviously he instead realized I need to invent the car.

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How much of it is you both deciphering?

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This is what the client thinks they want, but gosh, let me steer them in the correct direction.

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Client thinks they want, but gosh, let me steer them in the correct direction.

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Oh, we've chatted about this on so many episodes that our goal to help any artist out there and including is to be more of the professional you come to.

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For that reason, our strategy, our work, our history, hopefully, our results will prove to you that we will take you through this.

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We say handholding all the time with our clients.

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There's so much that gets done before the first sketch, before the first concept.

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So if we could do that right and show them blueprint here's the contract, here's the overall creative direction and brand positioning we all agree on.

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Now we'll fulfill that and now we'll create that.

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So the more you could take their personal preference out of it.

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The last thing you want it, particularly if you're onboarding someone as a client.

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That's like look, I'm just gonna tell you right now I don't like the color green and so I don't want to see green and anything.

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And you're like what not?

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Not a good way to start.

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You know what I mean?

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You are not waiting in, waiting in line, and a paying customer for your brand.

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Your consumer is, your customer is.

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So we're going to identify them and we're going to figure out what's going to make them tick, based on the persona, everything else.

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So again, it's like showing us as the expertise the expert with this thing is a very difficult thing to do, and we've seen designers that we both know graduate to different levels that every time they try it, the more you put in your upfront onboarding, the more you put in your pitch decks, the more you put in your presentation and the sales pitch of the actual concepts.

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That's how you win them over, and so it's no longer their personal preference, it's this will work when it hits the market.

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Yeah, knowing the target audience, which is a whole slew within the discovery phase itself.

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And the client thinks that they oftentimes may know those C-level individuals, they know who their direct customers are.

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And then, once you dive knee deep into the research, you discover hmm, what's the happy medium here in between him or her understanding and knowing that I was actively listening at the forefront, while understanding that there's a tree that's been barked up.

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That's not quite the right tree here.

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That does happen every now and again.

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And then what also happens too are those projects where you are representing the individual's business.

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We have a number of real estate brokers that just want to brand for themselves, reach out and it's and they it's all about their style, it's very interesting versus their potential customer line.

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So they're in their minds, they're not thinking about what others will resonate with, they're thinking about what will visually represent me best.

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Me, me, me, me, me.

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It's one of those me me, me projects that can kind of drive you batty, by the way.

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Me, me, me.

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Projects that can kind of drive you batty, by the way, yeah, but once they understand and hear from you as the consultant that it has to be portrayed in a manner that reaches out to potentials.

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Then they start to understand what the project needs to incorporate in its phasing altogether.

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It's very interesting to incorporate in its phasing altogether.

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It's very interesting those that are lead generation based, where you have to study a number of target audience members.

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Those are the most riveting projects Because oftentimes those audience members diversify from each other so heavily.

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And with that I know I've spoken about testing from a high level, but split testing and A-B testing those individuals to see what's benefiting globally is fascinating.

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It's truly fascinating to understand what works.

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Yeah, I'll tell you what I'm going to do this here on the air together, so listeners won't know this, but before we hit record, we had an awesome conversation about the personal touch and, mikkel, I love the.

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With that in mind, though, we did talk off the air about how I've always felt since I started my first business.

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Mikel, I relate to this part of your story.

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I started in 2008, and back then I just felt, if I just inject my personality and the fact that I'm a human into everything that I do, I was also a college kid, and people like to help college kids, and so I used all of those things to my advantage to the point where, mikkel, as I matured as a person and as an entrepreneur kind of, the biggest dilemma that I went through was my personality in myself is so deeply embedded in the way that I do business.

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Should I have kind of a corporate brand and call myself some sort of agency name, versus?

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I was heavily influenced at the time by looking at people like Tony Robbins, and today's kids are all seeing Gary Vee show up 8 million times a day on their social media news feeds, and so they see these very loud and proud personal brands versus.

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It felt silly as a 21 year old to say, oh, I'm the CEO of this agency.

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You've never heard of year old to say, oh, I'm the CEO of this agency.

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You've never heard of how do you navigate those waters.

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Because it is having a personal touch.

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I know we all value that, but also building a brand that, mikkel, to your point, resonates not just with ourselves but with the people that we serve.

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Yeah, it does have to be a happy medium.

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You go first, Nick.

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I would say designers are getting out of this weird phase where we were designing for other designers our personal brands.

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I know for years I wanted my personal brand just to look as good as any of my competitors or people that were doing it out there.

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I wasn't.

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I was doing it for all the wrong reasons and it wasn't until I took the niche and said let's stay in the food, beverage and restaurant zone as far as we kind of put ourselves out there, as that gave me the confidence to turn my brand around to not just what it looks like, it's what it says.

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And so the copy and everything else now is, I feel, even as a designer.

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I think a real designer will tell you that copy and message is forefront, design comes after.

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So I want to make sure I'm talking to them with all the confidence and all of the things that will answer their questions before we've even talked.

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My brand just happens to kind of like follow that lead and has the optimist like my words are like optimistic, team player, collaborative.

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I want to be.

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I go by my testimonials, what clients have told me about working with me.

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That has become my brand positioning kind of statement, if that makes sense.

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So I just make sure everything we create to promote out there Cause I'm a big fan of it too, just like you said, brian, I want, I want my personality and my reputation to sell me just as much as any art, that's that just happens to have my name on it.

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Yeah, I, I don't.

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I truly don't believe that my website, any social media handle and or my brand identity artwork altogether, has anything to do with the success rate any given month for myself and my independent practice.

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It might be gravy every now and again and substantiate what people, when people look me up, that I'm legitimate and I have some credentials, but that's merely just about it.

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Now, I'm being extremely pragmatic with that statement.

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There are other designers out there where they rely heavily on interactions that are not personable, and that's where our digital first world has gotten to at this point.

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So if it weren't for the longevity of this business that I've been running, and referrals altogether, I truly don't believe that I would be as lucky as I am today.

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That is what has fed a number of projects anew for me.

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Yeah, which I think that's an important point right there.

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And something we don't think about often enough is that our brand.

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We attach so much of it to the visuals and the creatives part of it.

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But, mikkel, to your point, your brand is whatever I thought of you before I ever saw your website, because somebody else told me something about you.

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It's so true which leads me to ask you.

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I've always thought about this question.

00:21:18.828 --> 00:21:22.174
I've never asked experts like yourselves this question what's it?

00:21:22.174 --> 00:21:25.700
There's some brands out there that are super brands I think of.

00:21:25.700 --> 00:21:26.807
I'm going to call out Jeep.

00:21:26.807 --> 00:21:27.951
I don't understand it.

00:21:27.951 --> 00:21:34.154
I'm not a Jeep owner, but everyone who owns a Jeep you know that they own a Jeep and they love Jeep, and I don't exactly know why.

00:21:34.154 --> 00:21:40.912
And it makes me think, nick, about one of the points that you made, that it's's the words, it's the feelings, it's all those other things.

00:21:40.912 --> 00:21:46.179
How has a super brand like jeep how do they capture that?

00:21:46.179 --> 00:21:48.586
And the fact that my sister is a jeep owner?

00:21:48.586 --> 00:22:00.117
She has never been spoken to by any of the executives at jeep but somehow, walking away from the dealership with those car keys, she inherently had that Jeep experience.

00:22:00.117 --> 00:22:07.474
How do we capture that in our brands that probably aren't car brands, and someone might just be a social media agency owner.

00:22:07.816 --> 00:22:08.597
What's that difference?

00:22:08.597 --> 00:22:09.426
What's that spark?

00:22:11.250 --> 00:22:16.410
You know they've tapped into I think the best tool we have, which is brand archetypes.

00:22:16.410 --> 00:22:22.570
When a brand like Jeep I just had a slide on it it's so funny you mentioned Jeep because I use that as one of my examples when I'm teaching about brand archetypes.

00:22:22.570 --> 00:22:37.579
When a brand like Jeep I just had a slide on it it's so funny you mentioned Jeep because I use that as one of my examples when I'm teaching about brand archetypes they took the rebellious, explorer kind of archetype and everything they create, from their graphics to the grill shape, to textures and fabrics they're using inside their car.

00:22:37.579 --> 00:22:49.296
All talk to the person that is running to REI, you know, eight times a day to get a new backpack, to get the new thing for the sport that they do or the fun passion thing that they're a part of.

00:22:49.296 --> 00:22:52.426
They have tapped into that archetype so well and it's everything.

00:22:52.426 --> 00:22:54.854
It's the visuals, it's the language, it's.

00:22:54.854 --> 00:23:01.758
You might even notice I think it's Red Bull is the one example that they use the most on this.

00:23:01.758 --> 00:23:06.595
You can go on Red Bull's Instagram and there's not a single can of Red Bull anywhere.

00:23:06.595 --> 00:23:10.311
It's lifestyle, it's all of that.

00:23:10.311 --> 00:23:18.090
They'd rather show a person that looks like a Red Bull customer doing something in their life that seems exciting than the typical.

00:23:18.090 --> 00:23:21.186
You know, just having someone with the can in their hand.

00:23:21.227 --> 00:23:23.391
I think Jeep's the same way you can.

00:23:23.391 --> 00:23:29.871
It's a, it's an God, it's like a um, I don't want to say it's a cult, it's what's the right word.

00:23:29.871 --> 00:23:30.913
It's more of a.

00:23:30.913 --> 00:23:32.017
You know what I mean.

00:23:32.017 --> 00:23:35.008
It's like the people I know who have Jeeps same thing they're.

00:23:35.008 --> 00:23:36.049
They're not buying anything else.

00:23:36.049 --> 00:23:36.931
Right they?

00:23:36.931 --> 00:23:40.355
They didn't get tempted by the Ford Bronco that came out to be a direct competitor of it.

00:23:40.355 --> 00:23:41.958
They're like, they're loyalists.

00:23:41.958 --> 00:23:43.680
They're loyalists, that's the word.

00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:44.320
Yeah, there you go.

00:23:44.964 --> 00:23:55.848
If you could build a loyalist with your brand, then they become an advocate for your brand and they wouldn't be caught dead in anything else because they've told a thousand people I am Jeep through and through.

00:23:55.848 --> 00:24:01.499
So they've done a good job of luring them and locking them in.

00:24:01.499 --> 00:24:03.951
That would be my recommendation.

00:24:03.951 --> 00:24:04.914
How they did it.

00:24:06.486 --> 00:24:08.733
You know that's making me think so much.

00:24:08.733 --> 00:24:24.029
And this is when I worked on brand guideline projects, which at the time I was with a creative agency downtown Seattle called Fitch, and at that time I was hired specifically for the Nordstrom catalog publication and so I got to know print.

00:24:24.029 --> 00:24:28.058
I had to get to know print really really, really well.

00:24:28.058 --> 00:24:32.474
At my interview I didn't tell them that I had nearly the print background.

00:24:32.474 --> 00:24:33.498
Yeah.

00:24:33.597 --> 00:24:35.090
Anyway, hot tip number one from Mikkel.

00:24:35.710 --> 00:24:36.255
This is what we do.

00:24:36.255 --> 00:24:36.861
This is what we do.

00:24:37.204 --> 00:24:38.069
Fake it till, you make it.

00:24:41.107 --> 00:24:50.661
But what came with that role in that creative agency is getting my hands on a number of manual brand guidelines as well as mood boards.

00:24:50.661 --> 00:25:19.156
Mood boards were huge, the brand mood, so to speak, to that that the visuals that embody a brand we worked on, Grupo Modelo, and with that parent umbrella company, are beverage brands, such as Pacifico Negro Modelo, and no one of any visual presented could have any beverage.

00:25:19.156 --> 00:25:24.682
It was a matter a way of going about your day.

00:25:24.682 --> 00:25:41.234
It was a matter of the car that you drive, the terrain that you opted to travel upon, what you packed, what you packed in your overnight bag If you knew you didn't have the chance to shower to present yourself in a way that was comfortable.

00:25:41.777 --> 00:25:53.068
It was so interesting and that should be the challenge that you don't depict the retail merchandise piece throughout that exercise.

00:25:53.068 --> 00:26:04.891
It's that, it's a feeling, it's a mood, it's a way of life, it's how you resonate with the visuals as you're looking at it and anticipating the next one to come in to side view.

00:26:04.891 --> 00:26:07.277
Very, very cool exercise.

00:26:07.277 --> 00:26:11.307
But Jeep, yeah, I keep thinking about the word rugged.

00:26:11.307 --> 00:26:18.640
All of the females that are like butch-esque females in my community own a Jeep.

00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:20.599
It's true they do.

00:26:20.621 --> 00:26:22.186
There you go females in my community on a jeep.

00:26:22.186 --> 00:26:24.191
It's true, there you go.

00:26:24.191 --> 00:26:26.114
Mikhail being from new england, I'm just like no.

00:26:26.114 --> 00:26:30.009
The answer to that is subaru, honestly subaru has cornered its market.

00:26:30.088 --> 00:26:34.904
It knows exactly the lifestyle the preferences the last time I was in portland.

00:26:34.904 --> 00:26:38.250
That's all, I mean all I saw.

00:26:38.590 --> 00:26:44.605
Oh my gosh yeah, and mainers are proud of it too, because that is something I identify with for sure.

00:26:45.048 --> 00:26:47.839
In fact it's kind of an eye roller in the pacific northwest.

00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:54.275
Now it's like oh, another, and you know they get the tom's deodorant just like the other ones, do you know?

00:26:55.518 --> 00:26:56.446
yeah, and and it's true.

00:26:56.446 --> 00:26:58.095
And here's these brands go together.

00:26:58.597 --> 00:27:07.994
That's what I was gonna say nick I'm so glad that you beat me there, because that's such an important consideration is that these are the natural things that represent who we are as people the consumers.

00:27:08.055 --> 00:27:13.303
Mikkel, to the point that you made earlier, it's not even about the brands at that point, it's about the consumers.

00:27:13.303 --> 00:27:14.766
They've really identified that.

00:27:14.766 --> 00:27:17.750
So, coming back to your discovery phase, I think that's so important.

00:27:17.750 --> 00:27:38.349
I want to ask you this question, though, along these lines, because we are talking about such solid and beloved brands across so many different industries how much of branding is about intentionality and strategy from the get-go versus and I'm thinking about all the new-ish businesses, I'll say those businesses within their first five years of operating out there, that are tuning in today?

00:27:38.349 --> 00:27:40.757
How much of it is just saying you know what?

00:27:40.757 --> 00:27:51.988
I'm going to put something into the world and it's going to shape itself through the testimonials I get, through the customers that I attract, through the way that I do my marketing and my sales and my product delivery?

00:27:51.988 --> 00:27:59.353
How much of it is us putting our stake in the ground and saying this is what I want my brand to be, versus that evolutionary process?

00:28:01.478 --> 00:28:02.862
Gosh, good question, man.

00:28:02.862 --> 00:28:06.170
I'd say a smaller percentage find success.

00:28:06.170 --> 00:28:14.511
That latter way, which I believe the true strategy, all that things from the very beginning, sets at least the foundation.

00:28:14.511 --> 00:28:27.439
But I have seen, like you said, some of these brands who have come out of nowhere and socially referral wise, have made such a splash on the marketplace that I almost can't believe it was planned.

00:28:27.439 --> 00:28:34.695
It seems a little bit like luck plus timing, and they had the right product to back it up.

00:28:34.695 --> 00:28:39.731
And don't forget, all the best branding in the world will not get you to buy the product again.

00:28:40.031 --> 00:28:43.519
The product itself is what will get you to buy the product again.

00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:48.989
So, like, how many times have you bought something because of flashy packaging or whatever, and the product was kind of?

00:28:48.989 --> 00:28:51.355
You're not going to buy it again, it's done.

00:28:51.355 --> 00:28:56.471
That's where you make your true decision on if you're buying it again or if you're going to refer it to someone.

00:28:56.471 --> 00:29:00.277
So those ones that you mentioned, that surprise hits.

00:29:00.277 --> 00:29:17.509
I think it's the branding might have been a little bit like left field and that attracts people because even the common consumer knows, you know, like complacency and they know excitement and new and excitement and new is truly what can lure you over.

00:29:17.509 --> 00:29:26.896
So if the product is good, I think that's where those ones have just skyrocketed, because again, now you want it again and you will refer it to anybody else.

00:29:26.896 --> 00:29:29.496
So maybe that's how you can kind of separate them.

00:29:29.496 --> 00:29:30.098
I don't know.

00:29:30.098 --> 00:29:30.943
It's a great question.

00:29:30.943 --> 00:29:31.625
What do you think, mikkel?

00:29:32.267 --> 00:29:45.971
I will say that I love listening to you answer that question because you, with the packaging expertise and your background there, alludes to how you prepared your answer to that question.

00:29:45.971 --> 00:30:00.593
I will be honest, brian, I oftentimes have reached out to collaborate with those that are experts in this arena, and I am thinking without answering the question directly.

00:30:00.593 --> 00:30:04.859
I am thinking of an example that I think would be very interesting to expand on here.

00:30:04.859 --> 00:30:12.182
I have been with the same fintech organization, supporting them since 2010.

00:30:12.182 --> 00:31:03.625
And since about 2021, they were acquired, which was good news and moneymaking for them, of course, but what came with that was transitioning out a number of personnel and pulling in brand new individuals to be hired with that company, one of which is an individual I'm in touch with every day now individual I'm in touch with every day now and she came in with this approach of not rebranding but re-strategizing how to market the organization's FinTech services and product altogether, and with that, I learned from her.

00:31:03.645 --> 00:31:10.056
I still get to learn from these people, like I am the vendor that supports creatively the brand digital media facets, lead demand generation and website efforts.

00:31:10.056 --> 00:31:23.970
But I've learned so much from her because she took down all the canvases that existed for this organization and she posted blank ones and came to the board and all these meetings with fresh start.

00:31:23.970 --> 00:31:25.314
No, we're not ready.

00:31:25.314 --> 00:31:29.307
Wait, wait, wait until there's some establishment, okay, go.

00:31:29.307 --> 00:31:49.877
She knew exactly when was the right timing to start promoting any given sub-brand or a new product for her organization, from which timing like Nick just mentioned, is, what I have learned with this particular client extremely essential.

00:31:49.877 --> 00:32:06.553
I mean, if it weren't for honing in on timing of any given campaign or the season for when they find height in their organization and the lows, then I don't think that she would have taken their market from what?

00:32:06.553 --> 00:32:12.335
The phase that I've understood in history now, since I've been with them for so long, to the success rate that it is today.

00:32:13.226 --> 00:32:20.574
Yeah, I really appreciate that real life example, Mikkel, and I think it's particularly powerful because it shows how many considerations go into.

00:32:20.574 --> 00:32:37.574
I mean, we can throw this big word around of branding, but you're talking about branding sub product lines, You're talking about branding new product lines and and I'm going to use an example that love them or hate them, Mikkel you're you're in the Pacific Northwest, so this is right out of your backyard and people can feel however they want about Starbucks.

00:32:37.574 --> 00:32:47.393
But, as a new Englander, Starbucks has kind of stolen our thunder on the fall season because they've turned it into pumpkin spice latte season and everybody looks forward to that.

00:32:47.393 --> 00:32:49.352
It's such a core part of their messaging.

00:32:49.352 --> 00:32:54.952
Their visuals, their actual offerings change because of a change in the calendar.

00:32:54.952 --> 00:32:57.653
So I love hearing the two of you talk about this stuff.

00:32:57.905 --> 00:33:10.028
This next topic I'm not as excited to talk about, but we have to go there because it's something that we get a lot of emails from listeners asking about and I know your industry is all sorts of caught up in talking about it and that is AI.

00:33:10.028 --> 00:33:11.074
Everyone's worried.

00:33:11.074 --> 00:33:12.298
It's going to replace humans.

00:33:12.298 --> 00:33:20.696
I think the three of us can comfortably say it's only increasing our superpowers and helping us do even more things, but give us your take from the creative side of the world.

00:33:20.696 --> 00:33:21.858
What the heck is going on with AI?

00:33:21.858 --> 00:33:23.549
What's the direction it's going in?

00:33:23.549 --> 00:33:24.894
Right?

00:33:25.204 --> 00:33:25.907
This is the most.

00:33:25.907 --> 00:33:27.513
I think it's the biggest.

00:33:27.513 --> 00:33:36.792
We had like four solid episodes where it wasn't even supposed to be the topic and I think it became the topic because we just couldn't stop talking about it.

00:33:36.792 --> 00:33:46.034
And as a teacher, I struggle with it a lot because I'm trying to, I'm using it to get an opinion of it and to understand it as best as possible.

00:33:46.034 --> 00:34:02.057
I don't want to say anything good or bad about it until I have, you know, really figured it out and kind of tried it out and I'm seeing how it is making on the backside, the repetitive things, the things that shouldn't be taking so much of my time.

00:34:03.164 --> 00:34:17.201
If I can streamline that and have more time for the core of creating great content and great graphic design and great strategy, then I'd be foolish not to look at it and really be like okay, there's ways that can help.

00:34:17.201 --> 00:34:34.938
On the other side, the art side of it, it's still a little weird when you see how yes, let's say, ai can strategize your email and summarize things and you can look at it in two minutes instead of two hours Great, but AI can also create a full blown illustration that can.

00:34:34.938 --> 00:34:41.166
You would have gone and hired someone for, and I think, as creatives, I want to make sure there's guardrails.

00:34:41.166 --> 00:34:48.172
I want to make sure anything that you're using has ethical kind of traceability, and a lot of companies are now doing that.

00:34:48.172 --> 00:34:53.878
So now, any file that is created there, there is a history and there are to it that tell you how it was made.

00:34:53.878 --> 00:34:56.730
So that's that's pretty helpful.

00:34:58.173 --> 00:35:11.190
And then, last but not least, on my, my whole opinion on AI, I am trying to find the things that I know it can never read and strengthen those and making sure it's well known that that's what you will get with working with me.

00:35:11.190 --> 00:35:24.331
And the two things I have discovered that I feel AI can't touch right now is judgment and taste, and that is a big part of anybody at a creative manager or director level and above.

00:35:24.331 --> 00:35:40.739
So my prediction is we're all going to be conductors, we're all going to be design instructors and managers for this stuff in the future, and the lower production, tedious, repetitive things will be completely taken care of by AI.

00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:42.626
I think that's my prediction of where it will go.

00:35:42.626 --> 00:36:02.054
So I want to make sure judgment and taste are truly the two things that we, as creatives, still have our hands on the wheel, and I'm not giving up those at all, that's that's been um, I, I really haven't tampered with it a whole lot.

00:36:02.114 --> 00:36:03.317
I've tested some areas.

00:36:03.317 --> 00:36:22.675
If, brian, if you go to any Adobe max or any creative expo, they will market it and promote it and demo it for you like crazy, you'll get home and you'll start to use it yourself and you'll run into roadblocks and sometimes you won't, and sometimes you'll look at how you can apply it to your everyday business.

00:36:22.675 --> 00:36:29.277
There are a few areas where it does substantiate the business, the creative business.

00:36:29.277 --> 00:36:32.407
I wouldn't.

00:36:32.407 --> 00:36:34.356
I would say it's very specific.

00:36:34.356 --> 00:36:46.210
I wouldn't say it's applicable to any exercise that you run in Illustrator, for example on the fly, and if you have to troubleshoot on top of it, could I have just rendered it really quickly on my own in the interim?

00:36:46.210 --> 00:36:51.059
That's one of the areas that at this phase is hard to grapple with.

00:36:51.059 --> 00:37:04.659
But what's nuts and intimidating about it altogether is that next week, at this very given time, it might have solved itself or completely changed for the benefit.

00:37:05.184 --> 00:37:08.615
So you have to constantly be on top of it and in the know.

00:37:08.615 --> 00:37:10.106
That is what's intimate.

00:37:10.106 --> 00:37:21.356
The technology aspect to running a creative business like these is that you have to stay on top of it and if you don't, it will be noticeable.

00:37:21.356 --> 00:37:51.059
I've been on live screen share meetings that are introductive with potential clients and they're running me through how they've utilized AI technology to get the logo and the brand messaging and the existing splash page for web presence online by themselves, without any degree, no schooling, no YouTube review of anything, no nothing, and it's discouraging.

00:37:51.059 --> 00:38:06.956
It's interesting and it's also our job as consultants to look at that and go and basically tell them that I know a means for before and after, given what you just rendered with AI technology, with the application of my business.

00:38:07.677 --> 00:38:08.159
Good point.

00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:12.208
The fact that it's also in the hands of our client is very weird.

00:38:12.208 --> 00:38:24.829
So I get a lot of clients now that before I've created the mood board that I generally do and it's part of our strategy and they're paying for it they will do some mood boarding on AI.

00:38:24.829 --> 00:38:39.032
And, again going back to what we were talking about earlier, they're not the expert just yet and this is a bit of a weird thing that they are now exercising that creative process, thinking they can narrow it down and be like okay, we've, we've brought.

00:38:39.032 --> 00:38:41.585
This is random, can you help us?

00:38:41.585 --> 00:38:48.416
And now it's kind of eliminated 50 of what they're paying us for or what makes us special.

00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:50.885
I'm not saying it's replacing us.

00:38:50.885 --> 00:38:52.650
Good, it's in their mind.

00:38:52.650 --> 00:39:02.969
They're thinking they're getting a great deal and so our job now again is a little bit of handholding and saying guys, if you do that, you're going to blend in with everybody else.

00:39:02.969 --> 00:39:05.496
There's nothing special about what you've just gotten from AI.

00:39:05.496 --> 00:39:13.373
Yes, it might have made you think of something unique and maybe that's a neat tangent to kind of mess with, but leave that in my hands when we get to that part.

00:39:13.373 --> 00:39:34.414
So it has helped in a few times and it has been a hurdle in a few times with new clients that are dabbling with it on their own also forget, um, I think a lot of people think the art kind of industry, or creative, is the only one in the lineup of kind of what ai is coming for.

00:39:34.414 --> 00:39:35.396
Buckle up everybody.

00:39:35.396 --> 00:39:36.478
It's getting world.

00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:50.847
There's no industry that is finding themselves not in the crosshairs yeah, and to that point, nick, I recently came across this tool that uses ai to create podcast episodes.

00:39:50.847 --> 00:39:54.731
That's the one thing I always told people, yeah, and I ask questions.

00:39:55.271 --> 00:39:59.034
Yeah, it's interesting, yeah, yeah, I've seen all of them.

00:39:59.034 --> 00:40:02.016
And especially for us as podcasters, our voices are out there.

00:40:02.016 --> 00:40:04.637
We don't even need us to think about these things anymore.

00:40:04.637 --> 00:40:06.438
We can have episodes in our voices.

00:40:06.438 --> 00:40:16.518
So it is a scary world, but that's why I'm going to call both of you out here on the air right here, because I asked you both about the world of AI within your industry.

00:40:16.597 --> 00:40:23.601
But I think what you both just revealed in such a powerful way is that you didn't give us advice in terms of your industry.

00:40:23.601 --> 00:40:40.206
What you really put on full display for us here in this episode and in this conversation is you showed your attitudes and your mindset as business owners and as thought leaders and as people who are committed to not only ongoing education, but being at the cutting edge of what these changes are.

00:40:40.206 --> 00:40:51.545
That, for me, is so revealing in the way that both of you show up, and it's so refreshing to see that not only are you amazing creatives, but you're amazing business owners and you're amazing in the ways that you're of service to others.

00:40:51.545 --> 00:40:53.289
So thank you for your answers there.

00:40:53.289 --> 00:40:55.416
It's super insightful, which leads me.

00:40:55.576 --> 00:40:57.349
It leads me right into my final question.

00:40:57.349 --> 00:41:00.606
This is always exciting for me to ask because you can take in any direction you want.

00:41:00.606 --> 00:41:05.014
You can talk about things we talked about today, or something completely random that you'd like to put into the world.

00:41:05.014 --> 00:41:07.038
And that is your one piece of advice.

00:41:07.038 --> 00:41:27.686
Knowing that listeners are tuning in at all different stages of their business growth and all different industries and, all over the world, over 150 countries tuning into today's episode, what's that one thing that you want to impart on all of your fellow entrepreneurs and, yes, all of those entrepreneurs out there as well, oh man you want to take this first, Mikkel, or do you want me?

00:41:27.706 --> 00:41:30.932
Sure, it's part of the reason that we maintain our show.

00:41:30.932 --> 00:41:33.077
I'm happy to go first.

00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:33.759
Go.

00:41:35.885 --> 00:41:46.085
So part of the reason that we have obtained loyal listener base is because there are several that have graduated with a degree that has nothing to do with creative and they have turned the page Now.

00:41:46.186 --> 00:42:11.909
It's not necessarily the realm of history that Nick and I personally have come from, but we've learned over time how to hold their hands throughout the process and explain that it's never too late and it's okay to shift and transition from something that's completely distinct from what you were practicing decades prior to this exact moment in time.

00:42:12.891 --> 00:42:41.338
So jumping ship, as they call it, is part of the reason why our show it has legs for listeners that have opted especially since the pandemic, by the way have opted especially since the pandemic, by the way to remain a stay-at-home mom and dapple with digital media for the first time, blog material for the first time, photography in a way that they don't have to necessarily pick up an icon camera.

00:42:41.338 --> 00:42:52.188
They're working with other production phases of photography itself, production phases of photography itself.

00:42:52.188 --> 00:42:59.045
It's a massive gamut of opportunities out there in the creative realm and if you're thinking that the nine to five is just not for you, it's okay.

00:42:59.045 --> 00:43:15.217
You can start having a networking with individuals that feel the exact same way that you do, and it's not too late to shift at 40, 50, 60 years of age into something, some other career in the creative world that fits you a little bit better at this point in time.

00:43:17.106 --> 00:43:17.487
I love it.

00:43:17.487 --> 00:43:34.284
I would say look, if you are thinking about making that and we all did, we so many people that have done it quite successfully, so I think we've got a lot of good things to share when it comes to that Be be, do it for the right reasons.

00:43:34.284 --> 00:43:45.510
Make sure, when you are doing that, the reality of it, it can't happen, it can't work, and there are plenty of great case studies to see people who have taken it on their own and started their own business and do things.

00:43:45.510 --> 00:43:47.711
Don't forget the human side.

00:43:47.711 --> 00:43:53.206
Don't forget the human side.

00:43:53.206 --> 00:43:54.007
Don't forget the customer service side.

00:43:54.007 --> 00:43:57.255
Don't forget you will be the person wearing all the hats at the beginning or even throughout the entire 12 years of your business.

00:43:57.255 --> 00:43:58.097
Doesn't matter.

00:43:58.097 --> 00:44:00.909
Just remember those things.

00:44:00.909 --> 00:44:03.876
You are the face, the voice of everything else.

00:44:03.916 --> 00:44:19.068
So, customer service, getting back to people, keeping a positive attitude, with things not being precious but being passionate I think that's my favorite line because it tells me I'm going to spend all that time I'm going to do all these things to do it, but I'm never going to take it personally.

00:44:19.068 --> 00:44:21.713
So learn how to balance that.

00:44:21.713 --> 00:44:29.938
Take all the things you learned your day job, whatever it's been, and understand that those are the things to do.

00:44:29.938 --> 00:44:38.472
When it is just you Treat people as great as you can and I think there's such an amazing kind of opportunity for it, it never feels final.

00:44:38.713 --> 00:44:47.188
I still, to this day, feel like I'm a complete sham, and I've been running my business now for 12 years and I still feel like it's temporary.

00:44:47.188 --> 00:44:49.175
That is how I'm wired.

00:44:49.175 --> 00:44:53.416
You know, you go to school, you get your job, you make your promotions and I live that life.

00:44:53.416 --> 00:45:00.592
And now I'm doing this and just in this last year I've been able to say this has been the most exciting adventure ever.

00:45:00.592 --> 00:45:06.889
It's the most rewarding and to me, things that I'm like I don't want to give this up, and to me, things that I'm like I don't want to give this up.

00:45:06.889 --> 00:45:13.574
So I'm working harder and harder just to keep it going, because I don't want to lose this.

00:45:13.574 --> 00:45:14.735
I love the freedom.

00:45:14.735 --> 00:45:21.021
I love being able to say I have two to three areas of revenue stream now, rather than just the one big one.

00:45:21.021 --> 00:45:29.306
That scared me all the time and when our agency kind of fizzled out, that was a weird feeling of being like, wow, all eggs in one basket.

00:45:29.306 --> 00:45:32.675
Maybe I should change that a little bit when I make this move.

00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:34.181
Woof.

00:45:34.181 --> 00:45:38.054
I promise listeners a double dose of awesomeness here today.

00:45:38.054 --> 00:45:39.619
You both have delivered.

00:45:39.619 --> 00:45:41.103
This is the real stuff.

00:45:41.103 --> 00:45:46.784
Honestly, I feel like both of you are spilling the entrepreneurial realness right here in today's episode.

00:45:46.784 --> 00:45:48.007
I'm so appreciative of that.

00:45:48.007 --> 00:45:52.072
Tell you what there's no better way for me to celebrate episode 999.

00:45:52.072 --> 00:45:57.820
You both are all stars, not only at what you do, but also at being fellow entrepreneurs and business owners.

00:45:57.820 --> 00:45:58.101
Nick.

00:46:04.764 --> 00:46:06.693
I've never heard anyone articulate it that way.

00:46:06.693 --> 00:46:07.619
It never feels final.

00:46:07.619 --> 00:46:08.804
That is so nicely said.

00:46:10.304 --> 00:46:13.733
That was very nicely said, yeah, and the good news is if listeners are thinking, mikkel, nick, I don't want to let go of both of you just yet.

00:46:13.733 --> 00:46:21.028
The good news is you both have your own podcast that has been running for a long time and will be running for a long time further as well.

00:46:21.028 --> 00:46:32.137
So, with that said, you both owe us the links, not only to your podcast and where people can find that, but your personal agencies, because, as I said earlier, us the links not only to your podcast and where people can find that, but your personal agencies, because, as I said earlier in the interview, I want them to see your work.

00:46:32.137 --> 00:46:34.050
So drop those links on us, you two.

00:46:35.313 --> 00:46:36.797
Awesome, no problem at all.

00:46:36.797 --> 00:46:39.614
I'm at Longo Designs on Instagram longodesignscom.

00:46:39.614 --> 00:46:42.414
That'd be a great starting point for my stuff, mikkel.

00:46:43.385 --> 00:46:47.592
I'm at mkmdes design codecom and I I used to.

00:46:47.592 --> 00:46:58.309
We used to have these closing notes to um to push out in final stage of any given episode on our show and we don't promote that the handles and stuff anymore.

00:46:58.309 --> 00:46:58.891
I don't.

00:46:58.891 --> 00:47:09.875
I'm not actively on social media to the extent that I work on design imagery for social media across all these organizations that I support from week by week.

00:47:09.875 --> 00:47:23.414
However, um, and that's actually it links very much with the referral comments that I had earlier Um, but I can be found at MKM design co on Instagram as well.

00:47:23.414 --> 00:47:27.668
Um are Nick.

00:47:27.668 --> 00:47:33.739
You should share the two top ways that people can sync up with our show.

00:47:34.847 --> 00:47:39.376
Sure, yeah, the two biggest kind of formats are Apple Podcast and Spotify.

00:47:39.376 --> 00:47:47.353
At this point we are on all nine of the major podcast I guess streams and you can find us at the Deeply Graphic Design Cast and we also go by the DGDC in certain.

00:47:47.353 --> 00:47:50.309
Find us at the Deeply Graphic Design Cast and we also go by the DGDC in certain areas.

00:47:50.309 --> 00:47:53.177
But the Deeply Graphic Design Cast we're on Instagram.

00:47:53.177 --> 00:47:54.949
All of our link tree and everything is there.

00:47:54.949 --> 00:47:58.188
You can see some of the past episodes as well, and they're all categorized.

00:47:58.188 --> 00:47:58.889
We used to.

00:47:58.889 --> 00:48:06.353
We always make sure our number one thing is that every episode has a specific topic, even if it's with a great new guest.

00:48:06.353 --> 00:48:11.322
We want to make sure it's tangible there, that you can see the title and be like this one's for me.

00:48:11.322 --> 00:48:13.248
I need to hear a little bit more about that.

00:48:13.248 --> 00:48:14.592
So there's our plug.

00:48:15.215 --> 00:48:16.943
Yes, listeners, you know the drill.

00:48:16.943 --> 00:48:23.527
We're making it as easy as possible for you to find all of those links down below in the show notes, wherever it is that you're tuning into today's episode.

00:48:23.527 --> 00:48:25.650
Nick, you talked about the nine top ones.

00:48:25.710 --> 00:48:41.498
It feels like 90 at this point with regards to podcast distribution, but listeners wherever it is wherever you're tuning in, you'll find those links down below in the show notes, both to Nick's business, mikkel's business, their podcast and all the great work that they're doing, as well as their social media accounts.

00:48:41.498 --> 00:48:43.867
We're also linking to their personal LinkedIn's as well.

00:48:43.867 --> 00:48:53.228
So if you want to reach out and continue the conversation or talk about building a brand for yourself, because most of us have been ignoring it we're all guilty of exactly that so definitely reach out.

00:48:53.228 --> 00:48:59.478
Otherwise, nick Mikkel, on behalf of myself and all the listeners worldwide, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:01.144
Thank you so much Wonderful.

00:49:01.144 --> 00:49:02.628
Thank you Our pleasure man.

00:49:02.628 --> 00:49:06.416
Yeah, Don't forget LinkedIn Number one we should have.

00:49:06.436 --> 00:49:06.815
we that one.

00:49:06.815 --> 00:49:08.079
We could make a whole episode on that.

00:49:09.829 --> 00:49:11.394
That is the new frontier Trust me.

00:49:12.764 --> 00:49:18.253
Hey, it's Brian here, and thanks for tuning in to yet another episode of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.

00:49:18.253 --> 00:49:22.271
If you haven't checked us out online, there's so much good stuff there.

00:49:22.271 --> 00:49:28.737
Check out the show's website and all the show notes that we talked about in today's episode at thewantrepreneurshowcom.

00:49:28.737 --> 00:49:31.530
And I just want to give a shout out to our amazing guests.

00:49:31.530 --> 00:49:40.307
There's a reason why we are ad free and have produced so many incredible episodes five days a week for you, and it's because our guests step up to the plate.

00:49:40.369 --> 00:49:42.356
These are not sponsored episodes.

00:49:42.356 --> 00:49:43.961
These are not infomercials.

00:49:43.961 --> 00:49:47.452
Our guests help us cover the costs of our productions.

00:49:47.452 --> 00:49:58.414
They so deeply believe in the power of getting their message out in front of you, awesome entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, that they contribute to help us make these productions possible.

00:49:58.414 --> 00:50:06.889
So thank you to not only today's guests, but all of our guests in general, and I just want to invite you check out our website because you can send us a voicemail there.

00:50:06.889 --> 00:50:08.231
We also have live chat.

00:50:08.231 --> 00:50:14.266
If you want to interact directly with me, go to the wantrepreneurshowcom initiatea live chat.

00:50:14.266 --> 00:50:23.677
It's for real me, and I'm excited because I'll see you, as always every monday, wednesday, friday, saturday and sunday here on the wantrepreneur to entrepreneur podcast.