830: Elevating Design and the User Experience to Boost Revenue w/ Nick Hart

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Hey, what is up?

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Welcome to this episode of the Wontropner to entrepreneur podcast.

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As always, I'm your host, brian LoFromanto, and I'll tell you what today's guest I have got so much respect for, because this is someone who I think is incredibly talented.

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We are going to tap into his creative mind today, as well as his business mind.

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So let me tell you about today's guest.

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His name is Nick Hart.

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Nick is the founder of opera, which is a result oriented UX and SaaS growth agency.

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For those of you not familiar with these acronyms, ux is user experience, saas, as in software, as a service.

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Nick has close to eight years of experience leading design and strategy for growth driven companies.

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He audits, analyzes and designs to deliver customer centric experiences that evoke action and drive revenue, which every single one of us, as entrepreneurs and business owner, needs.

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So we're going to tap into the genius of Nick here today.

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Nick has helped deliver impactful work within green tech, logistics, sports, healthcare, fitness and many more industries.

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I'm excited to learn from him today.

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So I'm not going to say anything else.

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Let's dive straight into my interview with Nick Hart.

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All right, nick?

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I am so excited that you're here with us today.

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Welcome to the show.

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Thank you, brian, really happy to be here.

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Heck yeah.

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So I tease listeners just a little bit about your background.

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I wish that they could see your skills in action, but we're going to talk all about your website here today so that they can get those visuals.

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But take us beyond the bio first.

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Who the heck is Nick?

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How did you start doing all these amazing things that you do?

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Yeah, totally.

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So I would say it all started back when I went to art school in 2016.

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I was a non-traditional student, got out of high school actually didn't know what the heck I wanted to do Thought you know that was a little scary and just trusted the process and waited around a bit and tried to do some research and then always knew I was a little bit creative.

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And just so happens that there was a really great school in Detroit, Michigan, called College for Creative Studies, and I went in there to learn a little bit about graphic design and start down that road, and it just totally blew open my whole world about really what it is to solve problems and to think about things in a more analytical sort of frame of mind.

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And I ended up studying in the Netherlands for a bit too.

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With that.

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It was just a really crazy program that taught me so much about life and applying a process to everything I do, and so after that I ended up in a couple agencies.

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I just I loved really creative work.

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I wanted to help multiple companies in different agencies and get a lot of experience and did that for a few years, ended up at a full-time tech role as a product designer and then really started listening to myself and what I wanted from life and learned that I actually want more control over the things I'm doing every single day.

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I want to create a system that will enable me to have a healthier, happier lifestyle, get more gratification out of the skills that I've been learning, and really that's where I'm at today.

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I went out on my own to start my own business and I love every second of it.

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You know it comes with its trials and tribulations, but it's ultimately very rewarding, and so that's where I'm at today.

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Yeah, I love that overview, Nick, because you are throwing out some word combinations that we don't frequently hear together, which are you talk about going to art school, but then you talk about wanting to think analytically.

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I feel like, as a society, we often separate the art and the creativity from that analytical side, but I think that it speaks so much to the type of work that you do, because, first things first, I'm going to call you out here publicly on the air.

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You are incredibly talented from a design perspective.

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I'm so excited for listeners to go to your website at the end of today's session because it's beautiful.

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As soon as our team saw your work, we were just like we need this guy's mind on our show.

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But what really stands out to me is you don't just talk about design.

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I think it's so fascinating how much of your work focuses on growth, focuses on user experience, not just the world of design, in a world where there's always that debate between UI and UX and UI obviously can steal a lot of the thunder, but UX is so important.

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Talk to us about that distinction for people who have never maybe sat down and thought about their business through those two lenses of UI and UX.

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What are they?

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How do they fit together?

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How did you figure out where to place that importance?

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Definitely yeah.

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So for me and you make a good point that is so much the case where they're thought of in two different conversations.

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But for me, early on, I knew that to make really impactful work, it has to be thought of holistically, and I think that's what separates people that really can achieve a very high level of value, deliver versus some people that maybe can still deliver value but aren't at the highest level that they could be.

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So for a UI, it's about what the interface looks like and, to your point, brian, it's a lot about what you think of when you hear design.

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Oh, I know what this looks like.

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It was designed, it's maybe graphic design.

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It looks cool, it looks a certain way, it follows the brand guidelines.

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But then there's UX, which is a lot of maybe the ugly, or maybe I don't think it's ugly, but a lot of what doesn't look as beautiful because it's skeletal frames.

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It's how the information goes together, it's what the user might do when they're completing an action.

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It's more of these words that you move through something and you're not really describing how it looks.

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You're describing what's being done.

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And so for me, I knew to make really impactful work, it has to be the merging of the UI and the UI, and I think a lot of people nowadays they can sort of get into the industry and learn UX really well.

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Ui maybe you have an innate ability or you train for it like myself, I had to learn to get my craft really good but I think ultimately it should be thought of holistically and that's how the most amazing work is delivered and the most value is handed over to companies and people looking to improve their business.

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It's about that impactful work that can really draw on emotions, the emotional response when you see something that looks beautiful but also it doesn't get in the way and cause friction or pain points.

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So the UX is really sound, so you can complete something really well, you can do a task really well and it looks amazing.

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I think those are the things that really create just a world-class experience.

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Yeah, and when I hear you say the word experience, and when I think at a really simplistic level about UX, user experience, I like to think of that quote I'm a big sucker for quotes that says people won't always remember what you said, but they'll always remember how you made them feel.

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And when I think about my experience with brands, I'm gonna shout out Tesla, for example.

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Anytime there's anything with my car that I need attention towards, I just open up the app and I can message with their service team, and they will actually come to me wherever I am.

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Obviously, they know where my car is and they'll service my vehicle.

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That experience is so different from every other car that I've ever had, and, regardless of what people say about Tesla, that's how they make me feel, and so I have such goodwill towards them.

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Nick, it's really easy to think simply with regards to our businesses and say, oh, our experience is my website.

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Let me focus on my website, and that's what we really focus on, from both that design perspective as well as that experience perspective.

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When you think about user experience, though, what are the different elements that it touches?

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Because, having gone deep into your work, it's far more than just a website to you.

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Yes, definitely so, for user experience.

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Obviously there, initially, it's what am I feeling?

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Am I frustrated?

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You know, since you like quotes, brian, I believe it was Dieter Rams, a really famous industrial designer, that said good design is invisible, and I think of a doorknob.

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So a doorknob, if it's working right, you'll open the door and you won't really think too much about it.

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Maybe you think, oh, I love the.

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Maybe some people think, oh, I love the coating or the material or the style of shape.

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A lot of people don't.

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If it's broken, on the other hand, someone's gonna be trapped in a room or the door's not gonna work and they're gonna be extremely frustrated.

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So good user experience should, I think, bring attention towards the positive qualities or it should sit into the background.

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So if something is helping you complete your task or something that you know, it's solving a real problem in your day-to-day life.

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So maybe it's a task management application, you're doing it really well and it's helping you stay organized and you love it.

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It's not necessarily holding you back or disrupting your process.

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If it is, then maybe the UX needs to be improved.

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So I like to think of it in terms of if it makes you feel good, that's really good.

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Visual actually is a bit of UX, through the aesthetics usability principle one of Jacob Nielsen's principles from Nielsen-Norman Group and visual design can make someone feel good and then, because of that, improve the user experience.

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So I think ultimately something should feel good, it should work good and it shouldn't really get in the way and cause friction.

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Yeah, what an interesting perspective.

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Good design should be invisible.

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I've never thought of it that way, nick, but you're right.

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Things it's what we all say, or at least what I say about iPhones, for example, is that they just work.

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Hand an iPhone to your grandmother.

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She will inherently know how to use the iPhone.

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So I think it's such a brilliant product and you're right, there's a lot of design behind that, but ultimately it's that flow, it's that user experience that works.

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Talk to me about that, because I'm sure that you are even more frustrated than us normal people when it comes to the way that people talk about.

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I'll call out the entire field of conversion optimization right now, where all these marketers have convinced us that if you have a green button over a blue button, it's gonna increase your conversions and your opt-in rates by 12%.

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What's your?

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I guess you can either take it in a higher level way or go into the nitty-gritty with us.

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What are the things that you actually look at?

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What are some of those gripes that you have that marketers oversimplify and maybe miss out on the bigger, more important things?

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Right.

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So for me, being a graphic designer by trade where I got my start I always break it down to simple design fundamentals and also UX principles, so I didn't touch them on them a second ago.

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But, for instance, a button should look like a button.

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I think that's baseline table stakes.

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A button should look like a button.

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It shouldn't be tricking anyone.

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It shouldn't.

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If you hover over it, it should maybe light up or give some affordance that it can be interacted with.

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Some other basic ones are read paths.

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So most of the web on the Western world at least, because we read left to right, top to bottom, it creates a bit of an F pattern the way the eye moves through the page.

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So, making sure buttons are in easy to read spots, they are aligned with text and all the normal things.

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That's sort of table stakes and maybe some easy wins if they're not optimized.

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But yeah, I do think it is a little silly to start switching colors or things like this in sort of growth hacking.

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I do love the philosophies behind growth hacking, but I think ultimately you might need to do an A-B test or look at the difference in conversion after you make normal design decisions, versus saying I'm gonna change this to try to think of something totally weird and different, in hopes that it does improve conversions.

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So I would say making things usable and even talking to people too.

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You could have user interviews and just ask them what they think if they would have clicked the button.

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There's a lot of stuff you can do to take the guesswork out, instead of essentially throwing some random decisions over the fence and hoping maybe this moves the needle on some key metrics.

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Yeah for sure.

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Calling out.

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I love it.

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We're throwing a little bit of shade on the traditional growth hacking strategies as well.

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But I think that you're so uniquely positioned because you work in the SaaS space and SaaS, I think, has to be one of the most difficult and competitive environments out there, because there are SaaS companies popping up in every industry every single day.

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And so, with that in mind, nick, with your growth hat on, what are some of those things that you've seen in real life?

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Whether it's because I'm gonna ask you, our questions are gonna focus in two different ways.

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I'm gonna ask you about those zero to one companies and then those one to 100 companies.

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What are those different avenues and considerations at those different growth stages?

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Because we always hear terms like the MVP.

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We've all seen the Ubers and the Lifts of the world as they've grown from beginner products to now.

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They're just a mainstream part of life.

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What are some of those considerations out of the gate for companies who are looking to grow?

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And then, how do those change over time as they actually look to scale?

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Right, that's a really good point.

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So it's totally different, at least the traditional views.

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It's very different for a zero to one company trying to get an MVP out to market, maybe trying to prove that there is a market fit for that product, versus a company that's very well established, that might have multiple revenue streams and having new MVPs for different features and things like that.

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So I think ultimately for the zero to one, you have to let some of those things go, because we simply need to get a product to market.

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It should follow and adhere to all the basic fundamentals and keep all of that growth, the growth things in mind for it.

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But ultimately we want to get something out there that can be iterated on.

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That might not be the final solution per se, it might pivot, we don't know.

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So I think you want it to be perfect at the beginning, but a lot of that does have to sort of be held off at the beginning for zero to one products just to get something out there, whereas on the flip side, a larger company, you're able to analyze a lot of different things in greater detail and granularity, go deeper into specific flows, and at that point to the earlier question, that might be when companies are thinking of oh, maybe the button color needs to be different.

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It's because the product has some weight in the market already and it's matured, and now we're looking at different ways within the system that could be improved.

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So they're very different.

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But I think what's interesting nowadays is a lot of companies, even at the bigger mature stage, are taking on or at least they should be considering taking on this zero to one approach where everything is thought of more as work in progress, so get it to market, and then we think about it and it might not be perfect, but at this point we're starting to collect data.

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It's out there, we're hearing what the users think, we're seeing some numbers behind it, and then also we're following quickly with newer features or updates.

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Because I think that ultimately takes a lot of pressure off of people too that think this needs to be carried out and completed and then delivered and it has to be perfect.

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And I think what a lot of people realize now is that's not the reality of everyone's situation.

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There's always going to be some things that could be improved and I think if we just sort of remove that expectation that it has to be perfect, ultimately we can have a roadmap that carries out improvements and leads to a better product.

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Yeah, I love that answer, Nick, because it's giving us some insights into that analytical side of your brain you talk about.

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I think one of the key words in the way that you talk about this stuff is iterative.

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It's actually a mindset, it's an attitude towards the work that we're all doing in our businesses.

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It's funny, I think we all, when we started our businesses, we think we reached that point where, like, okay, I can set it and forget it now and, of course, there's no such thing as set it and forget it in life.

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Really, relationships, business fitness, everything needs to be maintained.

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And with that analytical hat on, I'm super curious.

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I think that an interesting part of your work is it's a word that popped up the more I research your business is that audit?

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What does your analytical brain look at when you go into a SaaS company or any other company?

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Is there some sort of mental checklist where you're like, all right, let's look at their website, let's look at their welcome sequence, let's look at their new client onboarding?

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Where does your analytical brain go when it comes to auditing the existing state of a business?

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Definitely yeah, I think a lot of it has come with experience, where I can easily come in and identify key things like oh, this is problematic, make a note of this.

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This could be improved In the best case scenario.

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I have to well, so that's maybe the worst case scenario.

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Worst maybe not for me.

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I love doing it.

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Worst position for a company to be in is if I have to come in and there's just stuff left and right.

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Everything has issues, blatantly alarming, things that are affecting experience, and it doesn't look like a modern company.

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It may even look like a company that shouldn't be trusted.

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There's a lot of things on the internet.

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You might get scammed nowadays Some companies if their product or website looks bad that's what a lot of people might think is that this is a scam.

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If it's the best case scenario, I come in and I think, okay, stuff is mostly good.

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We can start thinking of.

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Are there extra steps muddying the flow, causing friction?

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If that's the case, I can also pull open a heuristic analysis, which is what a lot of people do.

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Again, jacob Nielsen has a list of these that are really easy to go through.

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Some of them are they're just basic principles that can adhere good user experience to what somebody thinks and feels.

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One instance is just to throw one example of this is system feedback.

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If you were to upload an image, for example, onto a piece of software, an app, and it might take a second, you want to see a loading indication, a little spinning animation, something that's saying uploading For the user or the person using it knows the system is working.

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I'm getting some feedback.

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I am aware of everything that's happening behind the scenes.

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Even it's working, it's loading, it's uploading.

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If it doesn't have that, for example, there might be, if it's a slow internet connection, there could be a long pause five, 10, 20 seconds.

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Someone's going to think that it's broken.

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They might try to refresh the page.

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It's going to end the action.

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It's not going to complete what they're trying to do.

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It could be very bad.

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Product analysis principles can actually go a long way For me.

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I like to find some middle ground where I come in there I have some time with the application it could be entering in.

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I typically will create an account and go through the onboarding process, if there is one.

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I like to have a more populated version of an application where I come in and see a very dense view that some typical customers might be seeing and get a really good sense of that.

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I just spend some time playing with it, feeling through things, completing tasks.

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Typically.

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With that I can get a really good list of improvements and things to move forward with.

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That can really give the team a good sense of okay, this is where we should go and make improvements.

00:20:20.076 --> 00:20:37.500
Yeah, I want to call out every single listener, myself included here, nick, because hearing you talk about, for example, one of those basic principles for you is feedback to the user, and I think about all of the entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs out there who are listening to us and they may be thinking, nick, I don't have things that happen on my website.

00:20:37.500 --> 00:20:42.230
I don't need a loading spinning thing on the screens that people know that it's working Well.

00:20:42.230 --> 00:20:44.636
I think about as a consumer in the real world.

00:20:44.636 --> 00:21:01.621
When you're on a delayed flight and you're sitting on the runway and the captain isn't coming on the intercom to keep you updated, you just sit there frustrated, Whereas if they come on every 10 minutes or so and they just give you a brief update, even if the update is that we have no updates, that still feels better.

00:21:01.869 --> 00:21:03.938
It is that feedback loop that you're right.

00:21:03.938 --> 00:21:31.375
It makes us feel like things aren't necessarily broken per se, and I think it's so important for all of us business owners, and I also think it gives us insight into the way that you think in strategic terms, which is why I want to ask you this, nick, with your business owner hat on, part of your job, so to speak, is convincing companies and selling to companies, telling them, hey, focusing on this stuff isn't just good from a UX perspective, it's actually going to increase your bottom line.

00:21:31.375 --> 00:21:33.316
What are those conversations like?

00:21:33.316 --> 00:21:42.313
What's that messaging like for you to really convey this because it's work that you're incredible at and that you're super passionate about, but a lot of business owners they, you know, ready fire.

00:21:42.313 --> 00:21:42.794
Aim.

00:21:42.794 --> 00:21:44.859
Aiming is the last part of the equation.

00:21:44.859 --> 00:21:49.619
How do you shift and guide those conversations to focus on the stuff that will lead to growth?

00:21:52.077 --> 00:21:52.339
Right.

00:21:52.339 --> 00:22:01.950
So I think it always comes back to their customer of the, their audience, if it.

00:22:01.950 --> 00:22:07.155
You know, a lot of times the website is tied to revenue conversions.

00:22:07.155 --> 00:22:13.482
They might have a funnel where you know, they know x amount of conversions leads to a customer.

00:22:13.482 --> 00:22:41.865
If it's an application, then the maybe the least amount of time spent doing a task leads to better are why return on investment for For their customers, for the people using their application, and so if I can identify things that are closer to that bottom line, that are tied to those financial results, it's an easier conversation.

00:22:41.984 --> 00:23:10.383
So if a website I love designing websites, I love websites that are impactful and that are on, spiring, beautiful, but also that solve business needs and if I see an opportunity Enesia website that could be improved or maybe doesn't look so great and it could really inspire a customer base to have develop brand loyalty and take charge and love that this company is offering a service to them.

00:23:10.383 --> 00:23:15.480
Those are the areas that I'll focus in and have the conversation around that.

00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:23.801
Well, did you know that More people might respond to your brand if we redesign this or we make it look a little bit more modern?

00:23:23.801 --> 00:23:39.185
Did you know that the people using this application might actually come back to their manager and say this is great, it's saving me a bunch of time, or somebody's already keeping record of this application has helped us do x, y and z.

00:23:40.810 --> 00:23:46.977
I think those conversations are always where I like to stick with around that value deliver.

00:23:46.977 --> 00:24:00.534
Because ultimately I love designing, I think creating beautiful work is rewarding in and of itself, but ultimately I also want to have businesses grow and I wanna create value for them.

00:24:00.534 --> 00:24:02.096
I want them to be successful.

00:24:02.096 --> 00:24:11.035
So I'm always thinking of okay, it's a little bit more than design in the visual sense or what I like to do.

00:24:11.035 --> 00:24:16.755
It's about creating something that does Bring positive change to a business.

00:24:16.755 --> 00:24:27.503
And so I think about all the times, all the time I think about those conversations of what leads to that point that's gonna increase revenue or make their customers happier.

00:24:28.369 --> 00:24:30.673
Yeah, it's funny hearing you talk about this.

00:24:30.773 --> 00:24:43.580
I can't help but think about all the companies that I experience on the consumer side of things, and more and more as sass companies come into the marketplace, I just feel like they're all starting to sound the same, and we could blame chat gpt for this.

00:24:43.641 --> 00:24:56.695
We can blame the the fuzzy feeling, corporatey language that so many of them feel like they have to do, but I think so much of it is that Messaging is so hard because there's so much about all of our businesses that we want to convey and nick.

00:24:56.695 --> 00:25:06.507
Our listeners know that we always ask our guests what's your zone of genius, and part of what you wrote there is that you distilled complex ideas inside these projects for businesses.

00:25:06.507 --> 00:25:08.852
What's that process like for you?

00:25:08.852 --> 00:25:18.420
Because sass companies all have a million things that they want to say, but I'm sure part of your process process is sitting down and saying, okay, let's strip all the access away.

00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:20.642
What is it that we have to focus on?

00:25:20.642 --> 00:25:27.067
How do you even begin to figuring out what's the essential stuff that must stay and what's the fluffy stuff that we can get rid of?

00:25:29.692 --> 00:25:32.236
Yeah, I think so.

00:25:32.236 --> 00:26:04.342
I thought of sort of a sass growth framework that I was putting together and it all started with Aligning on the customer and it has things like what are the problems being solved, what you know, what is the core value deliver of, say, sass out, but ultimately it asks who are the main customers and it focuses all conversation around what do they need, what are they looking for?

00:26:04.342 --> 00:26:18.714
And I think, like you said, chai gbt can make a lot of things very general and not very targeted, and so it's really having a clear understanding of your, your end users, your customers.

00:26:18.714 --> 00:26:21.681
What are they looking for, what problems do they want to solve?

00:26:21.681 --> 00:26:37.621
And Just having the language around that so that they feel good reading through a website saying, okay, I can trust this company, you know they're not, they're not superfluous in their language, they're delivering value.

00:26:37.621 --> 00:26:40.984
They are telling me a problem that I have an identity with it.

00:26:40.984 --> 00:26:43.492
I'm in there also making me feel good.

00:26:43.492 --> 00:26:43.893
So it's a.

00:26:43.893 --> 00:26:47.898
I like to have a little bit of a positivity in there.

00:26:47.898 --> 00:26:50.241
I think you know good design makes people feel good.

00:26:50.281 --> 00:26:52.924
I think that does carry through into copywriting.

00:26:52.924 --> 00:27:14.380
It should Kind, of course, industries very similar, mature than others, and you know you don't want to put exclamation points everywhere and have it all exciting all the time, but I think ultimately there is a sort of optimistic lens that should be used in copywriting and at the end of the day, everyone's trying to help someone and so it's.

00:27:14.380 --> 00:27:19.266
It's like, to use a metaphor, just reaching a hand out for help.

00:27:19.266 --> 00:27:26.380
It's kind of the copy is reaching a handout to those potential customers and saying I'm here to help you.

00:27:26.380 --> 00:27:35.742
I want you to feel good, I want to limit these problems and I think that's probably a good point to just focus on for what we're writing copy.

00:27:37.211 --> 00:27:46.973
Yeah, it's fun for me to have these conversations with amazing entrepreneurs like you because I get to tap into your mind not only as a subject matter expert, like we're doing here today, but Also as a fellow entrepreneur.

00:27:46.973 --> 00:27:50.883
So I want to put your business in the spotlight for a second and talk to you as the business owner.

00:27:50.883 --> 00:27:56.895
What are the ux elements of opera that you focus on when you sit down with your executive hat on?

00:27:56.895 --> 00:28:03.903
What questions do you ask yourself to say hey, are my clients, are my prospective clients, having the best experience possible?

00:28:03.903 --> 00:28:05.526
What are those elements that you focus on?

00:28:07.711 --> 00:28:09.195
Right, yeah, great question.

00:28:09.195 --> 00:28:18.762
It is interesting approaching all of these values and fundamentals into my business.

00:28:18.762 --> 00:28:24.576
I, ultimately, I want the customer to be really happy.

00:28:24.576 --> 00:28:36.000
What I like to think of is my services are a concierge into the design world.

00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:48.265
I am there helping you through the door and showing you things and explaining them and then delivering results or a certain end for the project.

00:28:48.265 --> 00:28:55.285
A lot of times, you see, nowadays people will just hire quick services like five or something.

00:28:55.285 --> 00:29:01.018
They just want something quick, and that's a big differentiator for what I do.

00:29:02.971 --> 00:29:20.057
I'm almost a therapist at times, but I'm here to say, okay, you have an idea, let's talk through every bit of this, let's work through it, let's make sure everything that you have that might be a concern is addressed in that I will talk you through my professional approach, my expertise, and we'll get to that other side.

00:29:20.057 --> 00:29:23.074
That way, there's a big relationship developed.

00:29:23.074 --> 00:29:31.285
I'm very much focused on the relationship with the clients and it just so happens I'm a very positive individual.

00:29:31.285 --> 00:29:33.285
People tend to like working with me.

00:29:33.285 --> 00:29:38.978
I just love being around people, I love helping people, and that definitely goes a long way.

00:29:38.978 --> 00:29:48.160
I think, ultimately, it's making sure the customer is taken care of, that their experience in everything is focused on.

00:29:48.160 --> 00:30:00.439
With those things in mind, it really just comes a bit natural to me to help people and to keep my own user experience in my business processes intact.

00:30:01.180 --> 00:30:09.121
Yeah, nick, it's funny you almost alluded to it in that answer there Something about your work that I hadn't thought of before, which is business owners, businesses.

00:30:09.121 --> 00:30:20.898
If you're working more at the enterprise level, they're kind of married to certain things in their business, whereas you walk in and you say, hey, we need to change this, we need to optimize this, we need to gear this for growth and marry it to the strategy.

00:30:20.898 --> 00:30:22.265
What is your approach to that?

00:30:22.265 --> 00:30:28.104
What are some of those things that you see business owners or businesses married to that from your perspective?

00:30:28.104 --> 00:30:36.265
You say and it's coming back to that concept of being in an iterative mindset what are some of those elements that you say, guys, we can't be married to that.

00:30:36.265 --> 00:30:46.134
We actually do need to change that because you know, as a fellow business owner, there are certain things that this is our baby, our businesses are our life, work and our passion.

00:30:46.134 --> 00:30:51.515
What are some of those things that you love seeing people let go of and iterate on and improve and optimize?

00:30:54.450 --> 00:30:57.541
Yeah, I would say it does happen.

00:30:57.541 --> 00:31:00.792
From time to time it's challenging the status quo.

00:31:00.792 --> 00:31:07.442
Some people have just been doing things for so long that they never really questioned it.

00:31:07.442 --> 00:31:08.285
This is just the way it is.

00:31:08.285 --> 00:31:22.285
This is the way we've always done it, and sometimes it does help being that fresh set of eyes coming in, that third party that gives that neutral explanation of here is my perspective.

00:31:22.285 --> 00:31:24.265
Here is where I see things.

00:31:25.385 --> 00:31:44.285
I think also there is the sunken cost bias too, where there's been a time where I've come in and I've identified needing to redesign a very substantial part of a SAS app, and the team has already been working on this thing for a long, long time.

00:31:44.285 --> 00:31:48.285
It would take a lot to start up a redesign.

00:31:48.285 --> 00:32:02.141
It would be a very big project and it was almost like they were thinking, because of the amount of time invested already into where they're at now, it would be a losing proposition to redesign it.

00:32:02.141 --> 00:32:04.594
But the case was well.

00:32:04.594 --> 00:32:07.285
No, actually it's going to be a much bigger improvement.

00:32:07.285 --> 00:32:09.285
Your customers should see this difference.

00:32:09.867 --> 00:32:13.441
We actually need to halt the re.

00:32:13.441 --> 00:32:25.729
Halt the work where it is now I mean Still working on it but hold any new features with this existing iteration and start with a redesign that ultimately is going to be the new foundation going forward.

00:32:25.729 --> 00:32:31.020
So I think it's natural that there's those two camps of this.

00:32:31.020 --> 00:32:32.102
Is how it's always been.

00:32:32.102 --> 00:32:35.847
And then you know we've already spent a lot of time into this.

00:32:35.847 --> 00:32:57.210
But I think ultimately Is the job of the designer or the person offering the service to sort of be that, that visionary into, inspire and encourage and say, have that, have that vision of what this could be, because that's what we're aiming for ultimately is how much improvement this is gonna have once we do get over this initial home.

00:32:58.476 --> 00:33:09.818
Yeah, I'll tell you what I'm gonna call you out here on the air that I think you are such a rare blend of that vision, as well as marrying it to that strategy, and you have the skills To back it all up and put together some really cool projects.

00:33:09.818 --> 00:33:21.400
So I so love what you're up to with your business, which I want you to talk about your business in just a second, but before we get there, I always love closing these episodes by asking my guest what's that one takeaway you hope listeners get?

00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:24.923
With all the amazing things we talked about, you introduce us to some really high level.

00:33:24.923 --> 00:33:33.479
You x design, you I design principles and fundamentals that we must consider for all of our businesses, whatever type of business or service that we have.

00:33:33.479 --> 00:33:35.061
What's that one takeaway?

00:33:35.061 --> 00:33:42.903
What's the one action or consideration that you hope everyone walks away and says gosh, nick really forced me to think about this or to do this.

00:33:45.934 --> 00:33:51.626
Yeah that maybe it's a little tough to to wrap all this up into one, but also I don't think it is.

00:33:51.626 --> 00:34:03.289
I guess I would say, ultimately it's having that passion, that purpose, in that drive for not being content with a current solution.

00:34:03.289 --> 00:34:07.719
I think we all should look at something and say how could this be better?

00:34:07.719 --> 00:34:12.445
Ultimately, I'm both sides of the client and the agency fence.

00:34:12.445 --> 00:34:14.967
Ultimately, everyone wants it to be better.

00:34:14.967 --> 00:34:18.271
The customers even want it to be better because it will make their lives easier.

00:34:18.271 --> 00:34:26.865
So I think, looking at something with that passion of I love this, I want this to be better, how can I improve it?

00:34:26.865 --> 00:34:30.690
And then where can I meet in the middle ground, make sure that it does succeed?

00:34:30.690 --> 00:34:42.490
I think, ultimately, if everyone looks at something with that passion and that purpose and that inspiration, then we will always have a good website or a good application out there.

00:34:43.195 --> 00:34:44.958
Yeah, I love the way you sum that up, nick.

00:34:44.958 --> 00:34:55.190
It's something that was unexpected for me ahead of today's session is to really reveal and see in real time how much of your approach to all of this work really is that mindset.

00:34:55.190 --> 00:34:59.240
It just sounds to me Like in so many ways you're open to all possibilities.

00:34:59.240 --> 00:35:04.148
It's not that you know that that cliche that we all hear about when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

00:35:04.148 --> 00:35:14.628
It sounds to me like you're more than happy to walk into a project or business or your own business, not married to anything, and say what's best for the customers, what's best for this user experience.

00:35:14.628 --> 00:35:16.851
It's obviously such a keyword behind today's session.

00:35:16.851 --> 00:35:25.684
So Kudos to you for summarizing that so articulately and succinctly and on that note, I obviously teased your business opera quite a bit throughout today's episode.

00:35:25.684 --> 00:35:30.748
So tell listeners about what it is that you do, who you serve, and drop those links on us.

00:35:30.748 --> 00:35:32.652
Where should listeners go from here?

00:35:34.615 --> 00:35:34.876
Cool.

00:35:34.876 --> 00:35:36.077
Yeah, appreciate it, brian.

00:35:36.077 --> 00:35:57.072
So I launched a little micro agency called opera and it really is a one stop shop that can deliver really amazing work, whether that's a website, a rebrand, a sass application zero to one or you know more mature companies as well.

00:35:57.072 --> 00:36:07.063
Ultimately it's giving people access to really high end and current and modern approaches in design.

00:36:07.063 --> 00:36:13.409
So that could be, you know, making an application that looks as good as uber does today.

00:36:13.409 --> 00:36:20.360
That could be making a website that just blows away your customers and has animations and things that make it feel really premium.

00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:31.949
Opera delivers those results, so everybody can come away happy and really gratified with what they've gotten out of the design process.

00:36:32.331 --> 00:36:37.001
If you want to learn more, you can Go to the website opera design.

00:36:37.001 --> 00:36:46.202
That's open a dot design and you can see, actually, a lot of really cool new explorations to our dribble.

00:36:46.202 --> 00:36:48.105
All the social accounts are on the website.

00:36:48.105 --> 00:36:51.028
You can find them really fun, cool stuff.

00:36:51.028 --> 00:36:59.583
I'm always Posting work and with the latest technologies that are really just there to make people happy, to impress people, to inspire people.

00:36:59.583 --> 00:37:02.608
It's all about inspiring people and making great work.

00:37:02.608 --> 00:37:05.030
So I think that about sums it up for me.

00:37:05.596 --> 00:37:16.853
Yeah, I love that overview, nick, especially because you constantly talk about how you want to make people happy, and I think that that's something that all of our work should do in the world is make it a better place, and I think you are a shiny example of that.

00:37:16.853 --> 00:37:18.516
So, listeners, you know the drill.

00:37:18.516 --> 00:37:23.121
We are dropping the link to next website down below in the show notes, wherever it is that you're tuning into.

00:37:23.121 --> 00:37:25.585
Today's website is into today's session.

00:37:25.585 --> 00:37:27.949
His website is opera dot design.

00:37:27.949 --> 00:37:30.815
It's open a dot Design.

00:37:30.815 --> 00:37:32.458
Don't throw that dot com on there.

00:37:32.458 --> 00:37:34.358
You can just go straight to opera dot design.

00:37:34.358 --> 00:37:35.641
Find those links down below.

00:37:35.641 --> 00:37:42.246
We're also linking to next personal LinkedIn if you want to reach out to him and just thank him for being so generous with his knowledge on the show here today.

00:37:42.246 --> 00:37:47.172
But, nick, on behalf of myself and all the listeners, thanks so much for joining us on the show today.

00:37:48.556 --> 00:37:49.579
Thank you so much, brian.

00:37:49.579 --> 00:37:51.144
It's been a real pleasure, a lot of fun.

00:37:52.255 --> 00:37:57.842
Hey, it's Brian here, and thanks for tuning into yet another episode of the one trip to entrepreneur podcast.

00:37:57.842 --> 00:38:01.807
If you haven't checked us out online, there's so much good stuff there.

00:38:01.807 --> 00:38:08.561
Check out the show's website and all the show notes that we talked about in today's episode at the one trip on our show dot com.

00:38:08.561 --> 00:38:11.023
And I just want to give a shout out to our amazing guests.

00:38:11.023 --> 00:38:19.818
There's a reason why we are at free and have produced so many incredible episodes Five days a week for you, and it's because our guests step up to the plate.

00:38:19.858 --> 00:38:21.860
These are not sponsored episodes.

00:38:21.860 --> 00:38:23.461
These are not infomercials.

00:38:23.461 --> 00:38:26.945
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00:38:26.945 --> 00:38:37.920
They so deeply believe in the power of getting their message out in front of you awesome one trip and entrepreneurs that they contribute to help us make these productions possible.

00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:46.409
So thank you to not only today's guest, but all of our guests in general, and I just want to invite you check out our website because you can send us a voicemail there.

00:38:46.409 --> 00:38:47.751
We also have live chat.

00:38:47.751 --> 00:38:52.356
If you want to interact directly with me, go to the one trip on our show dot com.

00:38:52.356 --> 00:38:53.777
Initiate a live chat.

00:38:53.777 --> 00:39:03.188
It's for real me and I'm excited because I'll see you, as always every Monday, wednesday, friday, saturday and Sunday here on the one trip and our entrepreneur podcast.