820: SMART PR strategies for EVERYONE... and the power of "collabetition" w/ Rachel Dickman & Liselle DeGrave

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Hey, what is up?

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Welcome to this episode of the Wontropner to entrepreneur podcast.

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As always, I'm your host, brian Lofremento, and today we are joined by two powerhouse entrepreneurs that really embody the living example of what collaboration means and how a rising tide can lift all boats in the world of business and entrepreneurship.

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I'm so excited for you to meet them.

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So let me tell you a little bit about both of our guests.

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We are joined today by the amazing Rachel Dickman and Lacelle DeGrave.

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They are two incredible PR entrepreneurs that not only host a podcast together, not only team up on projects to amplify their effects and their impact together, but they're people who really understand PR at a really core level and how that can be a fuel for growth for all of us when it comes to business.

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So to give you a little background on both of them, rmg Communications, which is Rachel's company, and DeGrave Communications, which is Lacelle's company, are both full service public relations firms.

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Rachel owns RMG and Lacelle owns DeGrave.

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Together, they work to collaborate on projects to ensure incredible results on behalf of their clients.

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Their work has won regional, statewide and national awards for their creativity and effectiveness and, in addition I love podcasters they co-host the award winning Pressing On in Public Relations Podcast.

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They also co-wrote a book together called A Practical Guide to Starting your Own PR Firm.

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I'm so excited about today's conversation.

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You get not one great guest, but two great guests, so let's dive straight into my interview with Rachel Dickman and Lacelle DeGrave.

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I am so excited to have both of you here on the show today.

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First things first.

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Welcome to the show.

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Thanks for coming.

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All right, I knew that when we've got three people here, it's fun to coordinate.

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You guys are already in unison, which I love.

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I'm going to open the floor to both of you to take us beyond the bios.

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I know that both of you have your own amazing backstory.

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So, rachel, I'll pick on you first, because you're right in the center of my screen, take us beyond the bio and then, lacelle, walk us through your story as well.

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I think I was pretty lucky that right out of college I knew I wanted to go into communications and public relations.

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That was actually what I did my undergrad in at UCLA, so it was very natural.

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But the thing that kind of turned things around was I thought I wanted to do entertainment publicity, and then, after going to UCLA and doing a few internships at some of the big music studios, I decided that was not the path I wanted to take and after graduation I went back home and got a job at the city right in my hometown doing communications, and that's what led me to doing government work now.

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I really enjoyed it.

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I worked there in a few other cities throughout California in a large utility before I went out on my own.

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And that's actually when I went to the utility how I met Lacelle, and we've been friends and business partners for more than 10 years now and I know her story is a little different, so I'll toss it over to her to share.

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Yeah, my story is somewhat similar to Rachel's.

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And then I went to college, I studied public relations, I had a public relations internship, I went to work for a big firm right out of the gates, a big international PR firm, and from there I saw an opportunity in my hometown which would eliminate my commute.

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I wouldn't be working east coast and west coast, crazy PR, you know PR firm hours and I went to go work for a water district and I was really shocked by the.

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Retirement was better, the pay was better, I didn't have a commute and I've stuck in that public sector 20 plus years now, working on our own and having our own PR firms.

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But Rachel and I like to joke because I was already established and had my business we did meet, working together internally at a water district, and Rachel went out on her own.

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We had the same network and I panicked a little bit and I thought, oh my gosh, what is this going to do for my business?

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And so we just kind of said how can we work together?

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And so we like to say we do collaboration, collaborate with the competition, and it's more fun because we both have our own firms, we have our own branding there's, you know, rachel's unique, I'm unique, but we get to work together and we've somehow made it work.

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Yeah, gosh, I love that.

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I've never heard that word before.

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Lissa, I'm gonna chalk that one right up to both of you.

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Collaboration I absolutely love that, especially because for me, that's something that I realized when I started my first business when I was 19 years old.

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I quickly realized your so-called competitors are your best collaborators.

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That's why I always say that phrase.

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A rising tide lifts all boats, and I think that you two are a real, living example of that.

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And coming back to my first business as well, when I was 19, my first big breakthrough when people asked me about inflection points they're always like how did your soccer blog blow up?

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As a 20 year old American kid and the reason was was because of PR.

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Quite frankly, the BBC picked up one of our news articles and then that day we went from 300 visitors to our blog to 30,000, literally overnight.

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And that's where I believed that PR was an action.

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That just kind of magically happened.

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It wasn't until I matured as an entrepreneur that I realized PR is an action.

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Pr is something you can actively work towards.

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I wanna hear both of your perspective on that, having been in the field for so long.

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What are some of those misconceptions about PR, and at a really high level.

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What the heck is PR really?

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Yeah, well, I mean, at the core, public relations is really those relationships that you build with your stakeholders, right?

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So how those relationships work, whether you're working for public agency or on the consumer side or even B2B how those publics see your organization, is really gonna determine the success or failure of that organization.

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And, like you said, there are really accidental things that happen and can give you.

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There's the people that say all news is good news.

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But I will tell you, we get folks on the regular that reach out to us.

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A lot of times they just see PR as publicity and they want that media relations aspect.

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And media has really overall, just the landscape has changed.

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It really depends on where you're at, what you're trying to push out there, but it's really about securing those placements but then repurposing them right and how you can leverage that a little bit.

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But yeah, people a lot of times they just think it's that PR aspect and it really is earned media because you have to work for it, you really have to work for it and there's never a guarantee, right.

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And I would add on to that and say a lot of times that agencies they think PR is really difficult or it's gonna be really expensive or they just don't know how to do it.

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And there's so many ways that you can just start somewhere and start with the little things, like Lacell said.

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You know, maybe you're doing one news interview that you can leverage on different channels on your social media or on your website to even get more engagement and communication and publicity with your clients or customers.

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Yeah, I think that's a really important point that you just raised, which is that magical word of leverage, something that we get better at the more we grow as entrepreneurs and as business owners.

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Talk just about some of those ways to leverage those because, again, I'm gonna continue to use myself as a terrible example.

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My 19 year old self is that I never knew how to leverage these.

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So I talk about, you know, having a 30,000 visitor blip to my website traffic.

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I didn't know how to capitalize on that.

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So give us your perspective from a much wiser PR strategic approach to it how the heck do we leverage these opportunities?

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Well, you know, I'll use a podcast as an example.

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We have one client that has a podcast and in itself.

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you know it's a government podcast and they were getting traction on it, but we looked at ways to leverage that.

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How can we get more traction?

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So we set him up being on other podcasts that were outside of his podcast.

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We then let that kind of snowball into hey, this person's a thought leader, got him into some different publications, had him speaking at conferences and for that client, that's what they needed as far as public relations was.

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They wanted to really establish not only that connection with the community but also be seen as a thought leader within the government circles.

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So they were actually able, with all of that leveraging a PR, just building upon each other, when a statewide award in California for the podcast yeah, in a long time.

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that thought, rachel.

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When you're able, if you're a business owner, right, if you are able to leverage an opportunity say you're speaking in front of your local chamber of commerce or you get a placement, maybe at a local publication do everything you can to maximize that.

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You don't want it to just be one and done, because if someone wasn't in that room listening to you speak, or someone didn't read that article, it essentially doesn't exist, right?

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So post it on your LinkedIn, post it on your social media channels, just look for different opportunities that you can elevate and just make that one thing that you put so much effort into be maximized.

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Yeah, and speaking of that maximization, I mean I'm gonna give the two of you so much credit here today because, again, that that collaboration, I love that and we're gonna come back to that topic for sure.

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But I also think, especially even just talking to both of you before we hit record here today, is that it just seems like it is that strategic approach.

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Rachel, you talked about having the different platforms and, lacelle, you talk about leveraging your different platforms.

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Hey, a PR opportunity doesn't need to exist in a silo.

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Put it anywhere, in everywhere.

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Both of you individually have used the term repurposing already here today and I think that's so important for us to understand that this all fits in within a much broader puzzle and that's why, as a business junkie, I love this perspective, because nothing really happens in a silo in successful businesses.

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Talk to us about the broader strategy and how it fits in, because for most people, pr is not at all strategic.

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It's just something that you know helper, reporter out exists for a reason.

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We all get those emails three times a day and we call that a PR strategy.

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Obviously, it's not a PR strategy.

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Talk to us about how it fits into that broader ecosystem and how those pieces fit together.

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Yeah, I will say Haro, Haro.

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I'm never really sure how to pronounce that, but reporters have gotten quite lazy, if you ask me.

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So, like you said, if you are able to kind of pull those low hanging fruits and be able to secure something through it you know an e-blast like Haro that's great.

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And figure out ways to just reuse it over and over again.

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But be strategic.

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So if you do have that opportunity, maybe there's a reporter, maybe you're an interior design business and you see that they're looking for an interior design quote what's your strategic vision look like for your organization, long-term or maybe even short-term, and how can you put those key messages into that interview and so, and then, like I said, you post something on LinkedIn, tie it back into those strategic messages.

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Just bring it all back to where it's not scattered, it's everything is thoughtful and you're trying to maximize everything that you're doing.

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And on that note, I mean that's a really important point.

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Right, there is the big M word messaging.

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What the heck are we saying inside of these PR opportunities, which even takes us out imagined beforehand?

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I mean, we've all lived in Southern California and I just I always think back to the world of Hollywood and storyboarding.

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Well, we can't really have a production, we can't really say anything, until we figured out what is that story.

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Walk us through your thought process there, because not all PR is created equal when it comes to effectiveness at growing our businesses.

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How do you even begin to storyboard?

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Especially for all those listeners out there who are saying I'm a website designer, what do I have to say to a local newspaper?

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I remember living in Boston.

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I would see all these entrepreneurs in the Boston Globe and I was like how do they even think what to say?

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We don't always see our own stories.

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How do you all help your clients get at that?

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In starting out, especially if you're a one-person shop or a small business and not a large corporation.

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It's harder to be strategic right when you don't know what you're supposed to be doing.

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But as you grow your business, one thing to keep in mind is trying to do a strategic PR or communications plan, like you would a business plan and that's gonna really help where you can lay out your goals and objectives for the year, talk about that messaging and then lay out ways to show KPIs those key performance indicators for your success.

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But starting out, I think it's easy enough to just think about what you're good at.

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So if you said like you said, if you're a web designer, it person or even a PR person, outside of that, are there other things that are in your wheelhouse that you could talk about and look for those opportunities.

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So think about us.

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We're PR people, but there's also other things we do that we can tie into.

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So we do a lot of pitching of the podcast too, if that's an angle we can do, or the book, or if there's something else within what we do.

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I know Lacell does a lot on the education side and nonprofit for local associations as well, so that's another way that she's getting her message out.

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And two, just on, like the basics of the messaging side.

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When you have those key messages developed, they're almost like if you don't know what, that is a sound bite.

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So you're thinking of those sound bites about your business and those are the things you say over and over.

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And even in this interview, although casual, there's things we know and we say over and over in any interview we're doing or when we're talking to clients or when we're doing our podcast.

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So it's kind of what is it called Subliminal messaging, but in the best sense of that, where if you're listening to us, you're hearing it over and over, but you don't know you're hearing it over and over.

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But there's that consistency there and all businesses need that as well.

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Yeah, in one example of that, rachel, I know you mentioned our work with nonprofits.

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One in particular comes to mind and one of the things we try to do is we manage their social media outreach and this is really relatable to any small business or any business owner in general is you're not just creating content to create content.

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So we wanna make sure that for this specific client, 25% of the posts are advocacy related, because that's important to them.

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We want 25% to be volunteer focused.

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We also it's a nonprofit you're always trying to raise money right.

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Raise money, raise support, and so figuring out for your business what are those things that you want to sprinkle out in social media and are you doing it consistently?

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Are you doing it evenly?

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Those are gonna ebb and flow too.

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If you're having a big event or there's some big news happening, things like that, it may not always look evenly divided, but just at least having that mindset of we're just asking for money all the time and we're not showing the impacts of our program Like how can we better do that?

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So think about your business and what your business goals are and make sure that that's what you're putting out, not only on social media but maybe media relations, on your website, on your social, just anywhere that you are able to put out your message.

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Make sure that it's consistent and it's telling the story of what, what you're trying to achieve.

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Yeah, and I'll tell you what hearing the way that both of you talk about this, it is that layer of intentionality.

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I keep saying the word strategy and intention, and it's because that's really where this is coming from.

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Listen, that real life example of 25% of your content.

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You know exactly what it's going towards, whereas how many of us business owners, when it's time to post on social, we're just like what am I going to post today?

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And so it really is incorporating that across the board.

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So I love this intentionality, I love this strategic approach to all of this, which I want to go a little bit deeper, because I know a lot of people where they really start getting freaked out when it comes to public relations, whether they're doing it themselves all of us started out small or they're able to hire agencies such as yours.

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They always worry about that pitch and I'll say this on the air Rachel and I were joking about this before we hit record.

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As a podcaster, I see a lot of PR pitches 20 to 40 every single day in my inbox.

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Please, ladies, walk us through.

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What the heck does a good pitch look like?

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Oh man, well, you don't want to end up on the wall of shame.

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We've all been to that TV station and for folks listening that are not on the PR side, a lot of times in a newsroom you're going to have literally the wall of shame where the horrible, the worst news releases are up there.

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So I don't know.

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I mean, my biggest tip is really learn who you're pitching, whether it's a reporter, a writer, a podcaster, like what gets them excited.

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We know for you, you're all about business and encouraging people to grow their business, and so I know you did some research on us before you interviewed us.

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But we wanted to learn more about your platform as well, and that's really one of the key things, because you could have the same topic that you're trying to pitch, but you're going to have to slightly change that pitch based on who it's going to, and then also think about are you trying to get this on TV, or maybe a vlog, versus something that's going to just be in print?

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What are visuals that you can share?

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Do you have any B-roll?

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B-roll is kind of like that background footage with no voices, but just showing something.

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Like I said, I hate to say it, but we live in a different time, where media is very fast, reporters are.

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I do think they're getting a little bit lazy and so the more that you can prepare and give them content, it's really easy to read.

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Again, I'm going to use the word repurpose there's a better chance of securing something.

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Yeah, lizelle, right there, gosh, I hope everyone listening he's even that advice alone, because so few pitches actually consider the recipient.

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They're really good about bragging about hey, here's who this person is and here's who I'm emailing you on behalf of.

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Without that consideration and you all know we take so much pride in proactively finding people and it's it's never by mistake we literally have team members dedicated to doing that research on awesome entrepreneurs, and I think that's what makes our show so successful and I know it's what makes your approach for both of you and your agencies with your clients to be so successful, which is why part of me thinks well, it's not just that you two collaborate with each other.

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You two collaborate for a living.

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Pr is essentially collaboration at a really big scale.

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So talk to us about both of your attitudes towards collaboration, cause a lot of other agency owners, whether they're in PR or not, are probably thinking Rachel and the cell, what the heck are you two doing?

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You team up on projects together, even though you both have your own agencies.

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Walk us through that process how it started and also, on a collaborative level, how does it actually work within a given project?

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Yeah, I can start this one off.

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I think you know it's not for everybody.

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We know a lot of agency owners that they do like to be like the big kahuna for their agency and you know, leading the charge of selling and I and I think it has to do like this.

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In addition to being a business story, it's a story about friendship as well, where we just work really well together and we're still getting great things accomplished through our businesses by collaborating.

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But also sometimes I'm going to be completely honest some clients don't understand why they're like why do you collaborate?

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Like, don't you have a staff?

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of 20?

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I don't understand how that works.

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And sometimes we explain it and they get it and sometimes they don't.

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And we just have to be fine with that, because the people that want to work with us understand when they're working whether it's under RMG or degrade they're getting all of our team, but we're all working just like we would at a larger agency, where everyone's in lockstep with what they're doing.

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We know our roles.

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We're ensuring that our, our collective businesses can bring, like a large agency, expertise with that small, small time feeling of a personalized approach as well.

00:20:23.049 --> 00:20:44.519
Yeah, sometimes we joke that we're like that scene in step brothers where Will Ferrell and I don't know the other guy, brendan yeah, they're sitting on each other's lap going for the interview and then the one kind of like pops to the side and then and we actually had a funny thing is one of our greatest clients interviewed us that way.

00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:47.048
We were on a zoom call.

00:20:47.048 --> 00:20:54.057
He interviews us and then later touches base and says, okay, what is the jig is up, like what is going on.

00:20:54.057 --> 00:20:56.163
We researched you on LinkedIn.

00:20:56.163 --> 00:20:58.189
You guys are running too different for it.

00:20:58.324 --> 00:21:02.138
Like Rachel said, it sounds kind of sketchy but we have.

00:21:02.138 --> 00:21:05.778
We really have made it work and it's more, it's more fun to work together.

00:21:05.778 --> 00:21:08.326
We, like Rachel said, it's not for everyone.

00:21:08.326 --> 00:21:16.367
I would be really hesitant to go into business or you know, any kind of a partnership like this with just anyone.

00:21:16.367 --> 00:21:23.354
But it we've kind of made it work and I think our friendship is first and foremost and honestly it's.

00:21:23.354 --> 00:21:35.182
If it reaches a point where it doesn't, we might just say, okay, this isn't working out anymore and I and I would hope that we would still be friends and there, you know, there wouldn't be hard feelings, but for now it's just it's it's.

00:21:35.522 --> 00:21:53.990
I was out on my own way well before Rachel ever was, and I don't know if lonely is the right word, but it's it is can be difficult to be in business without someone to kind of bounce ideas off of and, you know, has a similar mindset and wants the same thing.

00:21:53.990 --> 00:21:55.266
So it it's.

00:21:55.266 --> 00:21:57.028
We see it as a benefit.

00:21:57.028 --> 00:22:01.778
I remember Rachel always used to say there's always enough work to go around.

00:22:01.778 --> 00:22:09.730
So we always see there was a subscription that we recently needed and there was someone kind of in our PR network that was like hey, do you want to share this?

00:22:09.730 --> 00:22:14.105
And I love things like that because as a small business owner, it's gonna benefit all of us.

00:22:14.105 --> 00:22:21.598
We're all gonna grow, and looking for opportunities to partnership will not necessarily weaken your business but strengthen it.

00:22:23.248 --> 00:22:24.672
Yeah, oh, I'm sorry.

00:22:24.771 --> 00:22:26.416
No, go ahead, Rachel, I'm here for it.

00:22:27.905 --> 00:22:34.085
People like well, why don't you just join like start a business together and maybe dissolve your businesses or something similar?

00:22:34.085 --> 00:22:40.144
But the reason we didn't is because Lacell have her business before and she's actually our owner with her husband.

00:22:40.286 --> 00:22:42.518
So, there's a lot of things that were already in place.

00:22:42.518 --> 00:22:58.565
And then I own my business and that's why we feel we kind of have the best of both worlds, where we get to work together, do great work, but then also have that agency over our own businesses on the finance side, on the on the board of director side, to do things that we maybe wouldn't do together.

00:22:59.748 --> 00:23:09.224
Yeah, I really appreciate that insight because I do think I mean, as someone who's been on the opposite side of this as well it's just that collaborative effort is also two totally different approaches.

00:23:09.224 --> 00:23:16.184
If you're both under the exact same umbrella, there will be a Rachel in Lacell way, whereas now you both have your own zones of genius.

00:23:16.184 --> 00:23:25.121
You also have your own approaches, and the fact that you can combine that on a project basis I think is really powerful, because we know what it looks like to grow businesses together.

00:23:25.121 --> 00:23:30.984
And Lacell to your point about the, the seriousness of going into business with someone in any collaborative effort.

00:23:30.984 --> 00:23:34.058
I always joke with people because I've got business partners in different businesses.

00:23:34.058 --> 00:23:35.345
It's like we're married.

00:23:35.345 --> 00:23:42.371
We have to manage so many things together, so it is an incredibly important bond and when I think of that, I also.

00:23:42.391 --> 00:23:46.224
The part that I like about talking to both of you is that you're also fellow podcasters.

00:23:46.224 --> 00:23:50.036
So even just PR aside, you get it when it comes to content creation.

00:23:50.036 --> 00:23:55.871
You both said repurposing quite a few times here today, and there's so many things that we get on the podcasting level.

00:23:55.871 --> 00:24:03.855
I almost feel like and I see you both using it Really in a real-life term as well I mean you both published a book earlier this year.

00:24:03.855 --> 00:24:13.076
You're going on a bit of a podcast circuit and I think it's fascinating how many people haven't come around to how many different forms of online media that there are.

00:24:13.076 --> 00:24:15.159
Podcasting is only one channel.

00:24:15.159 --> 00:24:25.196
Talk to us about that from a PR perspective, because I feel like a lot of people think about the traditional like I want to be in a Magazine, I want to be on TV but they overlook, I mean YouTube channels.

00:24:25.196 --> 00:24:30.878
There are massive YouTube channels these days that getting exposure on one of those is a huge opportunity.

00:24:30.878 --> 00:24:36.317
Walk us through your mindset and kind of some of those tools in your arsenal, since there are so many channels.

00:24:37.547 --> 00:24:40.424
Yeah, well, we, we had the idea of starting a podcast.

00:24:40.424 --> 00:24:41.509
It was one of those things.

00:24:41.509 --> 00:24:53.997
Being that we're in the PR field, we thought this could be really fun and it's interesting because what we're learning, our target, our listeners, were not our original target demographic.

00:24:53.997 --> 00:25:12.993
So we have pressing on in public relations, which is a real-life look at the PR world, right, a career in public relations, and so, being that we're in this field, we have we have that network of PR people and we have people that are always asking us questions, and so we keep it very light-hearted.

00:25:12.993 --> 00:25:17.108
It's very real, it's a conversation between friends and we.

00:25:17.108 --> 00:25:28.987
We often bring in guests and whatnot, but we really saw it as an opportunity for thought leadership as well as Just to bring.

00:25:29.608 --> 00:25:36.688
We did a lot of research before we even came up with a podcast because we wanted to see is there space in this market for Podcast like this?

00:25:36.688 --> 00:25:37.992
No one was really doing it.

00:25:37.992 --> 00:25:39.551
Like I said, we were.

00:25:39.551 --> 00:25:54.676
We were reached, we were trying to reach that maybe that Person that is a little bit more established in their career and what we're finding our demographic is really a younger female audience, and so we're thinking of that as we're coming up with future content, as, because we want to.

00:25:54.676 --> 00:26:01.894
We don't Necessarily need to change who the audience is, but we want to make sure that what we're doing is relatable to them.

00:26:03.026 --> 00:26:05.153
Yeah, I think that's such a powerful consideration.

00:26:05.153 --> 00:26:09.224
Again, it keeps going back and I think this is even aside from just PR.

00:26:09.224 --> 00:26:10.808
It's strictly just good.

00:26:10.808 --> 00:26:17.351
Marketing is always considering the other person on the other side of whatever Medium or channel that it is that you're talking on.

00:26:17.351 --> 00:26:23.849
Which leads me to another labor of love that I personally know is so much work, which is obviously your book.

00:26:23.849 --> 00:26:28.265
So you both just launched earlier this year a practical guide to starting your own PR firm.

00:26:28.265 --> 00:26:30.131
There it is for everyone watching on video.

00:26:30.131 --> 00:26:34.365
I love seeing there's nothing like a physical book to get you excited about that labor of love.

00:26:34.365 --> 00:26:44.218
I'd love for you both to walk us through not only the thought process of writing the book, but what was it like to actually put so much of that wisdom and your own personal experiences into it.

00:26:45.047 --> 00:26:53.525
When we started the book out, we it was kind of a happenstance we were driving somewhere and let's all said something about I've always wanted to write a book, and I said me too.

00:26:53.525 --> 00:26:56.615
And so we thought, well, what can we write a book on?

00:26:56.615 --> 00:27:06.164
And the one thing that came to mind was how to start a PR firm, because I we can't tell you how many times colleagues and friends say to us hey, can we pick your brain?

00:27:06.164 --> 00:27:09.935
We're interested in starting our own PR firm, our own business.

00:27:09.935 --> 00:27:17.689
So what we wanted to do is take all that information and distill it down into something that's easy to use and really Tactical.

00:27:17.689 --> 00:27:19.904
It's not for someone that's still trying to find themselves.

00:27:19.904 --> 00:27:24.257
It's someone that already knows they want to start a firm and how, how to do that, like through those.

00:27:25.465 --> 00:27:34.914
Really simple, no-nonsense tip like ways to do it, whether that starts starting an escort or an LLC, working on their branding, how to get clients.

00:27:34.914 --> 00:27:38.005
We cover it all in the book, so they have all of our secrets.

00:27:38.005 --> 00:27:39.852
It's just like picking our brain.

00:27:39.852 --> 00:27:43.404
They can read the book and find out all the ins and outs of what it's like.

00:27:43.404 --> 00:27:47.845
We talked about the nitty-gritty, what's fun, what's not fun, what's a lot of work.

00:27:48.125 --> 00:27:50.616
I think a lot of people they see, especially in PR.

00:27:50.616 --> 00:27:57.704
You know if you're posting on social media, you're out like a fancy event, you're getting awards or you know something that seems exciting.

00:27:57.704 --> 00:28:00.631
But the majority of our time is you can imagine too.

00:28:00.631 --> 00:28:07.827
Really there's a lot of business side that goes into that, whether it's getting the clients, dealing with HR, hiring people.

00:28:07.827 --> 00:28:15.585
It's all that other work that they need to think about too, and we actually had one person that read the book and they gave us a five-star review.

00:28:15.585 --> 00:28:24.505
But they said after reading the book they realized that they were not cut out to own their own business, but this was a really great roadmap to show them what was actually involved in starting a firm.

00:28:25.826 --> 00:28:27.851
Yeah, because that's that's one of the.

00:28:27.851 --> 00:28:29.554
That's an interesting point, rachel.

00:28:29.554 --> 00:28:37.595
When we recorded the audible, for example, our Producer said Everything that we I heard you say in.

00:28:37.595 --> 00:28:43.045
This poor guy had to hear everything we said over and over again, because it's the editing that's involved in a book, is I?

00:28:43.045 --> 00:28:45.688
We kudos to him.

00:28:45.688 --> 00:28:49.752
We really wanted to record it ourselves, so it wasn't some stranger.

00:28:51.276 --> 00:28:59.201
But what's in here is really relatable to any business, to be honest, because it's about a third of what we do is public relations.

00:28:59.201 --> 00:29:11.382
But we like to joke that another third is really worth therapists to our clients and the people that we work with, whether it's another consultant or someone on our team, but it seems like everyone needs therapy sessions.

00:29:11.382 --> 00:29:13.621
We're PR people, we're therapists.

00:29:13.621 --> 00:29:24.359
And then, third, we're business owners, and that's really at the top of everything, because if you can't be business minded, it doesn't matter if you're the best PR person in the world, you're not going to be profitable, your business isn't going to thrive.

00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:32.165
You've got a good skill set, but you really have to be in it, for you've got to understand the business side of it.

00:29:32.295 --> 00:29:40.324
So we go into that in the book and I think that's just something that, honestly, when people want to pick our brain.

00:29:40.324 --> 00:29:44.663
That was one of the things that they really are challenged with, because you go to school to study something.

00:29:44.663 --> 00:29:53.701
You've been doing this craft for 20 plus years but you really aren't necessarily business minded, and so the book really has all of that in there.

00:29:53.701 --> 00:30:13.261
A lot of people say you could turn that into counseling sessions when people say they want to pick your brain, but Rachel and I really don't want to make a career of meeting with people and giving them business advice, and so, like she said, we put pen to paper and we decided to publish a book, and that was an adventure in itself.

00:30:13.261 --> 00:30:14.740
The writing was the easy part.

00:30:14.740 --> 00:30:15.656
I like to joke.

00:30:16.780 --> 00:30:17.924
Boom that right there.

00:30:17.924 --> 00:30:19.461
That's honestly the real stuff.

00:30:19.461 --> 00:30:36.465
I want to call it out for listeners, because both of you made a really strong point to point that out about your book, which is if you want to be a practitioner, if you want to be someone who does PR, go get a PR job, because if you want to be a business owner, there are so many other responsibilities that come with it.

00:30:36.465 --> 00:30:39.986
None of us, as business owners, are pure practitioners.

00:30:39.986 --> 00:30:43.823
That's part of what we do, inevitably, but we also have to understand that business side.

00:30:43.823 --> 00:30:50.045
So I am a big fan that so much of your book is dedicated to that, because PR is one component of it.

00:30:50.045 --> 00:30:56.862
But doing that strategic, mindful executive work is such an important thing that I don't think we talk about enough.

00:30:56.994 --> 00:31:06.085
A lot of people who love PR or love website development or love whatever agency it is that you want to start you have to be equally in love with growing your business.

00:31:06.085 --> 00:31:08.844
So both of you have awesome client portfolios.

00:31:08.844 --> 00:31:13.040
I guess I want to ask you this question, not as PR experts, but as fellow entrepreneurs.

00:31:13.040 --> 00:31:19.303
Now Walk us through whether it's your first client story or your favorite way of attracting a client.

00:31:19.303 --> 00:31:23.242
What's one of those real life stories as a business owner that you got a client.

00:31:23.242 --> 00:31:24.038
You were like you know what?

00:31:24.038 --> 00:31:28.280
That is the way that I want to do business and that's exactly why I serve others.

00:31:29.775 --> 00:31:32.163
And LaSalle and I spent a lot of time in PR.

00:31:32.163 --> 00:31:33.961
I had a really great connections.

00:31:33.961 --> 00:31:36.544
We were connected into all the PR associations.

00:31:36.544 --> 00:31:37.699
We had our colleagues.

00:31:37.699 --> 00:31:41.505
So going out on our own, that was the first place we tapped into.

00:31:41.505 --> 00:31:45.699
We wish there was a silver bullet we could tell people if you do this, then this, you're going to get clients.

00:31:45.699 --> 00:31:47.821
But I think a lot of ours is.

00:31:47.821 --> 00:31:51.720
We really looked at that first circle of people we knew and started hitting them up.

00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:55.463
And you never know, sometimes a no is just a not.

00:31:55.503 --> 00:31:59.865
Now we had my favorite story is one of my colleagues.

00:31:59.865 --> 00:32:08.121
They were at a city and when I went out on my own I reached out to him and he said right now, unfortunately, we have some other firms under contract, but I'll let you know if anything comes up.

00:32:08.121 --> 00:32:11.825
And I knew that when the time was right he would reach out.

00:32:11.825 --> 00:32:24.285
And, sure enough, about a year and a half later he reached out with a small job and now we have probably about $1,500,000 in contracts with that agency thanks to doing a great job on that little job.

00:32:24.555 --> 00:32:32.260
And I know this sells a lot of similar stories about how just that networking or those bad experiences too we're good at betting now.

00:32:32.260 --> 00:32:44.064
I think that's a big thing that we've learned is not all clients are right for you, and when someone comes with a rush job and they want something in two days, that's not a client we're going to probably take on because we've had in there.

00:32:44.064 --> 00:32:46.001
They're in the book too if anyone's interested.

00:32:46.001 --> 00:32:54.756
But we have horror stories with those thinking that it was going to be a good opportunity and it didn't turn out to be so.

00:32:54.756 --> 00:33:18.243
Some of it's also listening to your gut and your heart and if something's telling you that it's not meant for you and even when we look at RFPs we feel this a lot you can almost tell it coming off the paper or off your screen if it's going to be a good opportunity to spend your time filling out a proposal, or if it's not, yeah, I would agree, you do get better over the years, and I think that's again relatable to any business.

00:33:19.035 --> 00:33:31.923
I know when I was first getting started and I wasn't so focused on government and nonprofit work, I thought, oh, I'm going to do skin care, this is going to be a fun thing, you think of the consumer side and it just never felt right.

00:33:31.923 --> 00:33:45.164
And I did a lot of things initially that were maybe trades, or did it for a very low rate, and realized that when you give something away, people don't value it and that's a tip across the you do.

00:33:45.164 --> 00:33:53.586
I think there is a certain level where and even in our business today we will throw things in that are just value ads to our client, where they're hey, can you do this?

00:33:53.586 --> 00:34:00.414
And we just do it because we really try to strive to give that level of extra customer service A lot of times.

00:34:00.414 --> 00:34:07.970
I don't think you get that at a big PR firm, but I just kept it just like it didn't work.

00:34:08.059 --> 00:34:17.184
When I gave something away, they didn't realize that they just got thousands of dollars of service for free, and I think that's one of the hard things too when you work in a service.

00:34:17.184 --> 00:34:26.288
It's not something that's necessarily tangible, and so it can be hard for someone to measure right and so they really struggle with that.

00:34:26.288 --> 00:34:32.867
But yeah, I mean we've had some very rarely, but we've had to fire clients in the past.

00:34:32.867 --> 00:34:58.068
It doesn't happen often and, like Rachel said, you become more discerning and you kind of know, okay, this is gonna be a good relationship and we have those clients that we worked with year after year and they renew with us and we love working with them and but you just I think you feel that in any business where it's just a good people work with people that they like no one trust, and that's really what it's about.

00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:02.130
Yeah, it puts a big smile on my face hearing both of you talk about this.

00:35:02.130 --> 00:35:14.447
I feel like these are the battle scars that we've all picked up along the way in entrepreneurship and, as much as we talk about this so publicly like it's hard for anyone to learn these things until we're actually in the thick of it.

00:35:14.447 --> 00:35:27.606
So we've all learned it baptism by fire, by being in it in Lacell Gosh, that point that you made about those who pay pay attention that is such a simplistic lesson, but one that's so hard to learn and so frustrating along the way.

00:35:27.606 --> 00:35:38.088
So I'm glad you called that out, and what I really appreciate is both of you have shown up today not just as PR experts, but really with your business expert hats on, and because both of you you live this stuff.

00:35:38.088 --> 00:35:46.789
You've grown teams, you've served clients, and so both of you really understand it on all of those levels, which I think in turn just makes your services even that more powerful.

00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:56.849
So I have no idea how each of you are gonna take this last question, because you both have a wealth of knowledge and experience to pull on, but I always like asking guests with the listeners in mind.

00:35:56.849 --> 00:36:03.568
We've got one entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs tuning in from over 150 countries around the world at all different stages of business.

00:36:03.568 --> 00:36:06.766
Listening to this saying gosh, you guys have figured a lot out.

00:36:06.766 --> 00:36:08.606
What the heck should I do from here?

00:36:08.606 --> 00:36:15.224
What's that one takeaway that you hope listeners walk away from today's episode with I'll get started.

00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:18.106
Literally, that's it, just get started.

00:36:18.106 --> 00:36:20.746
I'm a big pen and paper person.

00:36:20.746 --> 00:36:21.461
I like to make.

00:36:21.461 --> 00:36:44.224
Every day there's a new list and you've got kind of those things that you need to accomplish by the end of the week or the end of the month, but then you have stuff that you need to get done today, and so the biggest and I think Rachel would say the same it's just do something that's going to move your business forward, because a lot of times you see someone's success and it looks like, wow, that happened overnight.

00:36:44.224 --> 00:36:48.646
I've been doing this for 20 plus years, so it didn't happen overnight.

00:36:48.646 --> 00:36:58.028
It started with a really bad logo on Microsoft Word that I created myself with a typewriter font Okay so, because I couldn't afford a designer, right?

00:36:58.028 --> 00:37:05.045
So do something today that's going to move your business forward, big or small, and you just do that.

00:37:05.045 --> 00:37:06.965
You just take it in bite-sized pieces.

00:37:07.980 --> 00:37:16.887
And even if you have adding on to that 15 minutes to just research whether it's a website reading a book like ours to find out what it's really like.

00:37:16.887 --> 00:37:29.744
Like we said before, you could be a rock star in graphic design or PR or in business and a corporation, but once you see what's really involved with running, a business that may not be the right path for you for many reasons.

00:37:31.219 --> 00:37:33.108
Yeah, real life advice.

00:37:33.108 --> 00:37:42.429
These are the real life conversations that I'm so appreciative that we get to have here on the air, and it's because of amazing, transparent, open, generous guests like both of you.

00:37:42.429 --> 00:38:00.168
I also knew that we would run out of time here today, but that's why I'm going to plug it before I even throw the baton back to you both that I think it's so cool that listeners, if they want more of the two of you's stories, experiences, insights, they've got two options at a minimum from here, which is I'm going to shout out your podcast.

00:38:00.168 --> 00:38:01.244
I love the name of it.

00:38:01.244 --> 00:38:02.445
I love what you both are doing.

00:38:02.445 --> 00:38:06.244
I love your commitment to being back on the air in a consistent level.

00:38:06.244 --> 00:38:09.429
So pressing on in public relations is your podcast.

00:38:09.429 --> 00:38:13.568
Your book sounds incredible A practical guide to starting your own PR firm.

00:38:13.568 --> 00:38:16.108
Ladies, I know that listeners are going to want to go deeper.

00:38:16.108 --> 00:38:19.706
I know I've plugged those two things just a little bit, but drop those links on us.

00:38:19.706 --> 00:38:21.266
Where should listeners go from here?

00:38:22.726 --> 00:38:24.679
They can visit us at pressingonpodcastcom.

00:38:24.679 --> 00:38:26.340
That has links to our book.

00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:29.320
It has more information on the podcast and about us.

00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:33.699
For me, they can also find me at rmgcomcom.

00:38:33.699 --> 00:38:36.871
That's rmgcomcom.

00:38:37.384 --> 00:38:38.579
And for DeGrave Communications.

00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:44.920
You can find us on Instagram at DeGrave PR or online at DeGravePRcom.

00:38:45.001 --> 00:38:47.057
Yes, listeners, you already know the drill.

00:38:47.057 --> 00:38:55.057
We are making it as easy as possible for you to find those links as well, as we're also adding in links to Rachel and Lacelle's personal LinkedIn.

00:38:55.057 --> 00:39:07.179
It's how we originally came across their work, and we so admire the way that both of you show up in the world through your work, through being of service, through serving other entrepreneurs at this point in your career, so we're so appreciative of that.

00:39:07.179 --> 00:39:18.579
So, on behalf of myself and all the listeners, thanks so much for joining us here on the show today hey, it's Brian here and thanks for tuning in to yet another episode of the Wontropner to Entrepreneur podcast.

00:39:18.579 --> 00:39:22.074
If you haven't checked us out online, there's so much good stuff there.

00:39:22.074 --> 00:39:29.059
Check out the show's website and all the show notes that we talked about in today's episode at thewontropnershowcom.

00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:31.088
And I just want to give a shout out to our amazing guests.

00:39:31.088 --> 00:39:40.360
There's a reason why we are ad-free and have produced so many incredible episodes five days a week for you, and it's because our guests step up to the plate.

00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:42.679
These are not sponsored episodes.

00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:43.958
These are not infomercials.

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Our guests help us cover the costs of our production.

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They so deeply believe in the power of getting their message out in front of you, awesome Wontropners and entrepreneurs, that they contribute to help us make these productions possible.

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So thank you to not only today's guests, but all of our guests in general, and I just want to invite you check out our website because you can send us a voicemail there.

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We also have live chat.

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If you want to interact directly with me, go to thewontropnershowcom.

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Initiate a live chat.

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It's for real me, and I'm excited because I'll see you, as always every Monday, wednesday, friday, saturday and Sunday here on the Wontropner to Entrepreneur podcast.