929: A strategic marketing plan that SAYS LESS(!?) and works BETTER! w/ Tiff Quillan

WEBVTT

00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:01.004
Hey, what is up?

00:00:01.004 --> 00:00:04.150
Welcome to this episode of the Entrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.

00:00:04.150 --> 00:00:12.619
As always, I'm your host, brian LoFermento, and I'll tell you what a lot of you listeners know that my one word for 2024 is building.

00:00:12.619 --> 00:00:29.966
For so many different reasons, and that's why I am particularly excited about today's guest, because this is an entrepreneur who, at her heart, she is a builder, and you're going to see how that manifests in her work, in her attitude towards helping not only her own growth, but helping other businesses grow.

00:00:29.966 --> 00:00:32.408
I'm super excited for all of us to learn from her.

00:00:32.408 --> 00:00:34.067
So let me tell you about today's guest.

00:00:34.179 --> 00:00:35.345
Her name is Tiff Quillen.

00:00:35.345 --> 00:00:42.468
Tiff is the owner of Nova Marketing, a marketing agency that serves the architecture, engineering and construction industries.

00:00:42.468 --> 00:00:45.009
You see building popping up right there, right away.

00:00:45.009 --> 00:00:47.259
Engineering and construction industries you see building popping up right there, right away.

00:00:47.259 --> 00:00:53.990
She spent six years directing marketing strategies for agencies and tech companies with billion dollar valuations, while simultaneously undertaking freelance projects.

00:00:53.990 --> 00:01:00.787
Deciding to invest her weekends and evenings into establishing her own brand, she focused on her business during her free time.

00:01:00.787 --> 00:01:15.230
Within just eight weeks, she was able to resign from her corporate job and fully commit to her venture, which I think is just an incredible example of her ability to build things not only for and with her clients, but especially from a business perspective.

00:01:15.230 --> 00:01:20.510
I know so many of you listeners can relate to Tiff's journey from going from entrepreneur to entrepreneur.

00:01:20.510 --> 00:01:23.644
I'm so excited about this one I'm not going to say anything else.

00:01:23.644 --> 00:01:26.590
Let's dive straight into my interview with Tiff Quillen.

00:01:26.590 --> 00:01:33.141
All right, tiff, I am so excited that you're here with us today.

00:01:33.141 --> 00:01:34.084
First things first.

00:01:34.084 --> 00:01:34.926
Welcome to the show.

00:01:36.049 --> 00:01:37.292
Thank you, brian, glad to be here.

00:01:37.859 --> 00:01:44.879
Heck yeah, listeners can't see you and I can see each other but listeners can't see You've got a sweet, sweet Nova neon sign in your background.

00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:50.531
I'm a sucker for neon signs, so super pumped for your aesthetics as well, representing your brand.

00:01:50.531 --> 00:01:54.227
But before we start talking about your brand, take us beyond the bio.

00:01:54.227 --> 00:01:54.828
Who's Tiff?

00:01:54.828 --> 00:01:56.460
How'd you start doing all these cool things?

00:01:57.584 --> 00:01:58.486
Absolutely I'd love to.

00:01:58.486 --> 00:02:08.508
So I've been in marketing for 10 years now and I've worked a little bit everywhere, but I think for a long time I was unhappy with my jobs.

00:02:08.508 --> 00:02:16.643
I would come home I was doing great at work but I never really enjoyed what I was doing and my husband would always remind me you'd be happier if you started your own business.

00:02:16.643 --> 00:02:22.164
And I think that's easy for people who want to be entrepreneurs to remind themselves of, but it's harder to act upon.

00:02:22.164 --> 00:02:24.189
And then I was at a picnic one day.

00:02:24.189 --> 00:02:29.961
I was kind of complaining about my job and somebody said why don't you have enough experience to do this on your own?

00:02:29.961 --> 00:02:31.485
And it was kind of a little push for me.

00:02:31.485 --> 00:02:35.181
I kind of was like yeah, why am I not doing this on my own?

00:02:35.181 --> 00:02:41.700
And it really lit a fire under me to to start and focus on myself and build my own business.

00:02:41.700 --> 00:02:49.552
And now I'm in a place where I'm so excited to be helping other entrepreneurs build their own businesses and take that leap as well.

00:02:50.193 --> 00:02:54.247
Yes, I love that, especially because listeners won't know this tip, but you and I know it.

00:02:54.247 --> 00:03:08.854
We've had to reschedule a few times because you're so busy with work, which I absolutely love that for you, and I think it's such a shiny example of the fact that you are deeply serving people and you're very proactively invested in their growth, which, in turn, means you grow as well.

00:03:08.854 --> 00:03:20.685
But I want you to take us into your industry, because we're going to talk a lot about marketing here today, but the fact that you found that nice corner of the world within the architecture, engineering and construction industry, how'd that come about?

00:03:21.626 --> 00:03:22.769
Oh, it's so interesting.

00:03:22.769 --> 00:03:25.633
I think with most things you kind of just fall into it.

00:03:25.633 --> 00:03:36.262
And the client I had kind of as a freelance client for a long time was in the engineering industry and I thought, well, what's related to engineering that I could kind of build off of and specialize in?

00:03:36.262 --> 00:03:42.903
And I was doing some research and it seems like architects, engineers and construction people work together all the time.

00:03:42.903 --> 00:03:50.741
It is kind of this AEC industry and I just did a little bit of research and there wasn't a lot of competition so I thought let's give it a try.

00:03:50.741 --> 00:03:53.810
It was really more of a test and I set it up and it worked.

00:03:53.810 --> 00:03:58.167
So I was like let's go full in on the AEC industry.

00:03:58.867 --> 00:04:02.801
Yeah, and I love you talking about the fact that there's not much competition.

00:04:02.801 --> 00:04:04.566
Because here's the thing, tiff.

00:04:04.566 --> 00:04:17.971
As someone who gets to talk to a lot of entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, I always hear this obstacle or objection that people are like, yeah, but my business is different, my industry is different, and it's really cool to me because you have a background in marketing and you're applying it to.

00:04:17.971 --> 00:04:19.021
I don't know.

00:04:19.021 --> 00:04:23.312
People might view your industry as traditional, as something that is set in its ways.

00:04:23.312 --> 00:04:32.451
It's obviously been around for hundreds of years, quite literally, but still, marketing is fundamental to all businesses.

00:04:32.451 --> 00:04:34.300
So talk to us about applying your marketing background to this industry in particular.

00:04:35.180 --> 00:04:40.541
Yeah, one thing that is super interesting you're correct that the AEC industry is an older industry.

00:04:40.541 --> 00:04:58.884
I mean, I think a lot of times, like when we're building businesses, we think we have to start with a new idea, but the truth is there's all these people that aren't being served, and maybe they do have kind of split traditional and more relevant, more digital needs, but somebody needs to be served there.

00:04:58.884 --> 00:05:02.132
So it doesn't matter how old a business is.

00:05:02.132 --> 00:05:04.185
There's opportunity there.

00:05:04.185 --> 00:05:05.209
If you just look.

00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:13.600
Yeah, really well said, and I think that's true not just with businesses, not just with industries, but with customers and client bases.

00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:19.470
If we pick anybody, it's all about figuring out those needs, and so I'd love to get your insights into the industry.

00:05:19.470 --> 00:05:31.771
You're so uniquely positioned in what you do because you do bring the marketing hat to it, which we've had some architects here on the show and they have been instrumental into the way that I personally think I know listeners have really enjoyed those episodes.

00:05:31.771 --> 00:05:34.422
But, tiff, they're builders quite literally.

00:05:34.422 --> 00:05:38.461
Not in the sense that you and I are talking about building businesses, but they are literally builders.

00:05:38.461 --> 00:05:47.069
They're very project oriented, they are amazing with blueprints and pen in hand, but they don't necessarily focus on the business side of it.

00:05:47.069 --> 00:05:50.050
They're not as excited about marketing as we may be.

00:05:50.050 --> 00:05:52.850
So talk to us about working in that environment.

00:05:53.620 --> 00:05:54.021
Yeah.

00:05:54.021 --> 00:06:05.274
So I think at a space need, the AC industry really needs two different types of marketing, and the first is kind of like lead gen services to get business in the door, which that's the more modern type of marketing.

00:06:05.274 --> 00:06:30.247
But the second type of marketing is traditional, it's more brand related and I think, like the number one thing that I've learned from the AEC industry and I think this applies to every company right, this applies to everyone who wants to start their own business and for any type of business in any industry that's trying to take the next step in their business is learning to say less through branding.

00:06:30.247 --> 00:06:36.384
So in any business, people are going to form opinions about you in two ways.

00:06:36.384 --> 00:06:45.168
The first is they're going to form opinions about you in those external resources they see, right, what does your online presence look like, what does your website look like, what do your reviews look like?

00:06:45.168 --> 00:06:49.165
But they're also going to form an opinion based on the conversation you have with them.

00:06:49.165 --> 00:07:05.593
So those are your top two opportunities in any business to make your case, for here's why you should buy my service or here's why you should buy my product, and we, as business owners, as want to be business owners, we have the tendency to business owners.

00:07:05.613 --> 00:07:17.326
As want-to-be business owners, we have the tendency to discount ourselves, not only verbally, but we do this visually as well, and what this looks like verbally is we qualify our statements.

00:07:17.346 --> 00:07:20.641
So a good example of this would be like you're doing a presentation in school.

00:07:21.041 --> 00:07:28.896
You start out that presentation with hey, I only had an hour to do this and one of my sources isn't so great, but I'm going to go ahead and give you this presentation anyways.

00:07:28.896 --> 00:07:38.043
Well, right away, you've told your audience not to trust you, and that's an example of, verbally, how we like to discount ourselves.

00:07:38.043 --> 00:07:40.168
Visually, we do the same things.

00:07:40.168 --> 00:07:52.487
A good example of this would be maybe you're starting a new business and you build a website and on that website you have a section that says oh, here's all of the work we've done, and somebody goes to that page and there's just one example.

00:07:52.487 --> 00:07:56.009
Well, right away, you've given that audience a reason not to trust you.

00:07:56.009 --> 00:07:57.204
Oh, they're just starting out.

00:07:57.204 --> 00:08:18.487
I don't know if they would be reliable and really, within the AEC space, what we do is help clients say less, so we make sure that they're not coming to the table qualifying themselves and they're not supplying information that is going to discredit them before they've had a chance to have a conversation with somebody.

00:08:19.201 --> 00:08:21.488
Whoa, tiff, that's important stuff there.

00:08:21.488 --> 00:08:29.810
We don't always hear people talk about saying less, especially the fact that you've differentiated these two important arms of marketing about.

00:08:29.810 --> 00:08:38.724
We need to figure out what the heck we're going to say and how our brand shows up in the world, and then apply the digital stuff that everybody loves to talk about, which we will inevitably talk about in today's episode.

00:08:38.724 --> 00:08:48.115
But I really want to go deeper into that first part of saying less, because where my head goes is well, if we say less than what we say holds even more importance and even more weight.

00:08:48.235 --> 00:08:58.448
I remember when I was 19 and I started my first business, I thought let me just throw a bunch of words at the at the wall, and something will resonate with the advertisers that I'm talking to.

00:08:58.448 --> 00:09:11.546
And so, to your point, that was doing myself a disservice because I wasn't cutting through to the heart of what I stood for and what I was doing and the value that I could provide, and also it was probably a very muddied message that I was putting out there.

00:09:11.546 --> 00:09:14.722
So, tiff, how do we find those right things to say if we're saying less?

00:09:15.885 --> 00:09:21.885
I think you really just need to focus on what you do and try to remove qualifying statements.

00:09:21.885 --> 00:09:32.380
So a really good example of this is you know, on my website, when I first set it up to focus on the AEC industry, I only had one client example in that industry.

00:09:32.380 --> 00:09:40.129
So on the website I didn't have a whole section that said, oh, here's all of the work we've done and all of our clients, because it would have made me look abysmal.

00:09:40.129 --> 00:09:45.671
Instead, I have a service page saying here's what we do, here's who we serve.

00:09:45.671 --> 00:09:48.389
And then I have just one example of success.

00:09:48.899 --> 00:09:52.600
Besides that, on my website I don't even have testimonials from clients.

00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:53.585
I have none of that.

00:09:53.585 --> 00:10:07.753
And what's really interesting is I haven't had any complaints or objections about that and I've actually had people, when they have their first conversations with me, say one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is because your website doesn't look spammy.

00:10:07.753 --> 00:10:16.725
You don't have 1400 reviews on your website, which feels inauthentic and it feels like you're trying to make up for the fact that maybe you don't provide good service.

00:10:16.725 --> 00:10:30.551
So you're right in thinking that when we say less, it allows people to get to the point we're trying to make better faster and it can even make us look like a higher end, more authentic brand.

00:10:31.254 --> 00:10:36.909
Yeah, I think that's really powerful, especially when we think about the brands that we all know like the tip of our fingers.

00:10:36.909 --> 00:10:38.192
Nike comes to mind.

00:10:38.192 --> 00:10:38.761
Just do it.

00:10:38.761 --> 00:10:48.870
We can all rattle off so many of these huge brands that are super memorable and super impactful because they're simple, because they don't say so much, and so I really value it.

00:10:48.870 --> 00:10:56.905
It's a quote that I bring up quite often in entrepreneurial conversations from Abraham Lincoln, where he says if you want me to give a five hour speech, I'm ready to go right now.

00:10:56.905 --> 00:11:01.264
If you want me to give a five minute speech, I'll need five hours to prepare, and it's so important.

00:11:01.264 --> 00:11:10.611
So, Tiff, knowing that you work with these companies in the AEC industry who don't have the same marketing background that you have, what sort of questions do you ask them?

00:11:10.611 --> 00:11:15.552
What are those prompts to get that good stuff out of them, so that you can help them say less?

00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:22.900
Yeah, I think the first thing we want to do is really focus on what they provide, so really understanding what is your value proposition.

00:11:22.900 --> 00:11:23.922
What makes you unique?

00:11:23.922 --> 00:11:30.527
Are you unique because you provide very personalized services, because you are one-on-one on all those projects?

00:11:30.527 --> 00:11:35.509
Are you unique because you only do high-end renovations?

00:11:35.509 --> 00:11:46.817
That you're providing a different level of service is at the very base what separates you from your competition and what truly are you hoping to sell.

00:11:46.817 --> 00:11:55.809
If we can understand that, then we look at the resources you have available to you and how we're going to leverage them.

00:11:55.831 --> 00:11:58.139
So let's say, okay, your value proposition is you're a small firm.

00:11:58.139 --> 00:12:02.307
You provide extremely authentic, timely, one-on-one service.

00:12:02.307 --> 00:12:06.000
What do you currently have in your toolbox that can represent it?

00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:08.846
Do you have a past client example we can use?

00:12:08.846 --> 00:12:12.822
Do you have some photos of your work that we can use?

00:12:12.822 --> 00:12:19.908
And if you don't have any of those things, we just find a different way to represent your value, right?

00:12:19.908 --> 00:12:25.200
If you don't have a past project example, well, obviously we're not going to use projects on your website.

00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:35.912
We're going to find photos of things that represent what you want to provide and we're going to talk about you providing those high end services, and then we're not going to reference that.

00:12:35.912 --> 00:12:37.139
The photos aren't yours.

00:12:37.139 --> 00:12:38.687
We're not going to claim they are either.

00:12:38.687 --> 00:12:51.530
So it's all about identifying your difference, identifying if you have any examples that can support that and, if you don't, finding alternative ways of representing that and communicating that.

00:12:52.279 --> 00:13:03.187
Yeah, tiff, it's really important stuff for all of us, and that's why I've been so excited to have you here on the show, because all this stuff we're talking about in your industry is directly relevant to every single business on planet Earth.

00:13:03.187 --> 00:13:04.831
There are zero exceptions.

00:13:04.831 --> 00:13:09.572
So, listeners, if you're sitting there thinking, well, no, my business is different, you guys don't understand.

00:13:09.572 --> 00:13:15.423
No, we do, because these are the fundamentals of marketing, and where you apply it to, your funnel looks different.

00:13:15.423 --> 00:13:22.004
Your media channels may look different, there's different places that your ideal customers are, but the fundamentals remain true.

00:13:22.004 --> 00:13:34.361
It's the very reason why they are fundamentals and so, tiff, with that in mind, I do want to talk about what we do with these fundamentals and, in your case, I know that obviously there's a lot of different top of funnel strategies that we could focus on.

00:13:34.361 --> 00:13:37.474
I know that you're big on SEO and PPC in particular.

00:13:37.474 --> 00:13:46.230
Talk to us about the different channels that you operate within and how you really arrived at those as the skill sets that can move these businesses and your clients forward.

00:13:47.113 --> 00:13:47.833
Yeah, absolutely.

00:13:48.033 --> 00:13:57.900
We'll start by saying you know, what I'm going to discuss here is most relevant for B2C businesses, a lot of B2B businesses.

00:13:58.001 --> 00:14:04.083
You might not necessarily get the business you're looking for with SEO and PPC, but there are parts that are relevant.

00:14:04.905 --> 00:14:35.094
So, when we're talking about B2C marketing, you know, seo and paid advertising is really the practice of showing up on Google, and the reason why we recommend that for our clients is because it's bottom of funnel intent, right, when we think about where people are in their purchasing journeys, if you are on Google searching for a service, you have bottom of funnel intent, you're ready for that service, you're ready to convert into a customer, and so that is the most effective, efficient use of your money.

00:14:35.094 --> 00:14:38.831
If you have a limited marketing budget, that's capturing demand.

00:14:38.831 --> 00:14:40.961
Now, of course, there's a there's strategies.

00:14:40.961 --> 00:15:06.542
There's top of funnel strategies, right, we can run ads on social, we can run display ads, we can run video ads, and even though we're targeting audiences that we hope are interested in your service by demographics, psychographics, we can't guarantee that they're actively in a searching phase, and so while it is beneficial to spend money there if you have money, it's not going to lead necessarily to capturing that bottom of funnel intent.

00:15:06.722 --> 00:15:42.868
So when we're you know, we work with a lot of small businesses or businesses launching or businesses that are trying to make the leap from from one product to another, and they have smaller marketing budgets and the most efficient use of your money is going to be search engine optimization and paid advertising yeah, tiff gosh, I'm going to ask you to do a huge favor for listeners here, because you're talking about some really brilliant marketing strategy here, about meeting people where they are at that bottom of the funnel, when they have that intent, and it's something that years ago, we used to talk a lot about interest-based advertising, because everyone thinks Facebook paid per click ads.

00:15:42.988 --> 00:16:06.758
They think that that's super attractive and it makes for a great topic to listen to in a podcast episode or in a YouTube video, but they missed out on that sale when that person eventually bought.

00:16:06.758 --> 00:16:09.381
So, tiff, take us into that strategic mind here.

00:16:09.381 --> 00:16:10.524
What does that mean?

00:16:10.524 --> 00:16:15.474
Walk us through what is the bottom of the funnel, what do you mean when it comes to that intent and how you capitalize on it?

00:16:15.474 --> 00:16:17.280
I'd love to hear more about that approach.

00:16:18.201 --> 00:16:19.182
Yeah, absolutely so.

00:16:19.182 --> 00:16:40.341
Buyers anyone when they're buying a product or service, they kind of go through this journey and this is going to start off with kind of initial understanding of that product or service, maybe progress into, hey, I might be interested in it, and then I'm going to research it and, okay, I'm actually here's kind of my short list of who I want that product or service from, and then finally I'm going to purchase it.

00:16:40.341 --> 00:16:49.835
And so when we're talking about top of funnel and bottom of funnel advertising, bottom of funnel is reaching people when they are actively in that buying phase.

00:16:49.835 --> 00:16:56.764
They've already identified that they want it.

00:16:56.764 --> 00:16:58.111
They've already identified that here's what it's going to involve.

00:16:58.111 --> 00:16:59.700
They've already identified here's my short list of people I'm interested in.

00:16:59.700 --> 00:17:07.016
So when you reach them right there, you don't have to take them through that entire journey, right, you just take them from the end of.

00:17:07.016 --> 00:17:12.470
Don't have to take them through that entire journey, right, you just take them from the end of the journey through to purchasing with you, which is the best part.

00:17:12.490 --> 00:17:31.414
When you're talking about top of funnel advertising, so, like advertising on Facebook, you might be catching somebody when they don't even know what the product is yet or when they're not even sure that they want that product, and so when you reach them there, even sure that they want that product, and so when you reach them there, you have to be with them for that whole journey, and so it's much more work to convert those people into customers.

00:17:32.336 --> 00:17:36.627
Now you might be able to get people at the top of funnel for a lower cost per lead.

00:17:36.627 --> 00:17:44.704
They might be cheaper leads, which is why a lot of people say, oh, I want to do Facebook ads I've heard it's really cheap cost per lead, but then you have to be with them for that whole journey.

00:17:44.704 --> 00:17:48.015
Versus if you want to do Facebook ads I've heard it's really cheap cost per lead, but then you have to be with them for that whole journey.

00:17:48.015 --> 00:17:50.381
Versus if you want to be an entrepreneur, if you're a business owner, you're busy.

00:17:50.381 --> 00:17:52.607
You probably don't have time to hold their hand the whole way.

00:17:52.607 --> 00:17:59.020
If you just meet them here, you might spend a little bit more, but that cost is going to pay back dividends in the time you get back.

00:17:59.742 --> 00:18:01.405
Yeah, really well said, tiff.

00:18:01.405 --> 00:18:13.053
I feel like you're taking a really complex topic and making it so simple for listeners to digest, especially if they don't come from the marketing world, especially if they don't understand top of funnel, bottom of funnel advertising.

00:18:13.053 --> 00:18:17.267
We're talking about dollars that we are spending and investing into our own businesses.

00:18:17.267 --> 00:18:19.031
We want to get maximum ROI from it.

00:18:19.031 --> 00:18:21.383
You're making it really simple for them to understand it.

00:18:21.403 --> 00:18:29.454
I think a simplistic example is about a week ago I saw ads on Facebook from Lacoste about shoes and I was like dang, I kind of do need new shoes.

00:18:29.454 --> 00:18:37.891
I don't buy many things, and you know, I stopped thinking about Lacoste shoes and then by the time I went to Google and search for where I can buy shoes around me in the city that I'm in.

00:18:37.891 --> 00:18:49.560
Whoever won that race is where ultimately got my dollars, and I think that that's such a key thing which leads me to.

00:18:49.560 --> 00:18:54.392
We're talking about some really strategic marketing here, and I think nothing's more strategic than SEO, because that is a long-term play that reaps huge dividends.

00:18:54.392 --> 00:19:02.443
When you can own that space, if I can rank number one on Google for shoes near me, I'm going to make a lot of money, but it's not obviously easy to do that.

00:19:02.443 --> 00:19:10.288
Talk to us about SEO Tiff, because I feel like there's this growing trend and it has been there since I'm gonna shout out at least 2010, where people say SEO is dead.

00:19:10.288 --> 00:19:13.047
Why is SEO fully alive and well?

00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:20.189
SEO is not dead and, no matter what people say, even with AI, it's not gonna go away.

00:19:20.189 --> 00:19:21.921
It's just gonna be in a different form.

00:19:21.921 --> 00:19:30.407
And the reason for is Google is a service, it's a whole business and you know, google is a multibillion dollar corporation.

00:19:30.407 --> 00:19:32.650
They are not just going to let their business disappear overnight.

00:19:32.650 --> 00:19:41.778
And the entirety of Google is based upon you wanting to go to Google and Google things because you get relevant information.

00:19:41.778 --> 00:19:45.601
You get relevant information.

00:19:45.621 --> 00:19:53.753
That's how they make their money by sending you advertisements on their platform, and that quality content has to be created by somebody, right?

00:19:53.753 --> 00:19:59.901
If Google's making its money because you're going to Google, to Google, somebody has to create that quality content.

00:19:59.901 --> 00:20:09.988
At the end of the day, ai cannot create that quality content because AI just takes what's already there and regurgitates it in a different way.

00:20:09.988 --> 00:20:16.686
So if you write an article with AI, you're not adding something new or valuable to the ecosystem.

00:20:16.686 --> 00:20:18.751
You're regurgitating what's already there.

00:20:18.751 --> 00:20:39.314
So SEO is never going to go away, because SEO is, at its very core, the process of creating authentic, quality content that answers somebody's question or answer somebody's need, and businesses leverage that to make sure that when that question happens, their listing is the one that shows up at the top of Google.

00:20:39.314 --> 00:20:43.483
So that's it's never going away, it's not dead, it's just going to evolve.

00:20:44.186 --> 00:20:46.403
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's it's never going away.

00:20:46.403 --> 00:20:47.387
It's not dead, it's just going to evolve.

00:20:47.387 --> 00:20:51.663
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's so key I as someone who I love email marketing and I've heard again since 2010, email marketing is dead.

00:20:51.663 --> 00:21:00.431
All these changes that ESPs are making to the way emails go to the inbox or the promotions tab it's changed, it's evolved, but we've adapted with it.

00:21:00.490 --> 00:21:16.612
So, really well said about SEO I'm going to call this out because I think that it's such a brilliant and strategic approach that you have with your clients is that marketing blend of PPC, which is we can start a campaign today and start being ranked literally today, minutes from now, and I think that's super powerful.

00:21:16.612 --> 00:21:31.881
But blending that with the longer term of SEO, because with PPC, if I stop paying for ads today, nobody sees my ads tomorrow, and if with SEO, if I invest in SEO today, then people will see it there, even when I've stopped my SEO efforts, which obviously you don't want to do.

00:21:31.881 --> 00:21:37.425
Talk to us about that blend, because a lot of people shy away from the fact that SEO takes a long time.

00:21:37.425 --> 00:21:38.751
But why is it that?

00:21:38.751 --> 00:21:42.888
That's the way that you structure your projects with clients 100%.

00:21:42.969 --> 00:21:46.342
Well, first off, when we get a new client, we know that that client wants leads.

00:21:46.342 --> 00:21:53.604
If they're a B2C service company, we know they want leads and we know that SEO really takes well.

00:21:53.604 --> 00:21:58.864
We can show results in three months, but really month six is when we're going to start to see some pretty good rankings.

00:21:58.864 --> 00:22:03.502
Most companies can't pay for marketing for six months and not see any returns, right.

00:22:03.502 --> 00:22:07.871
So just doing SEO alone is out of the question because they would be burning cash.

00:22:07.871 --> 00:22:09.601
That's not an efficient use of their money.

00:22:09.601 --> 00:22:16.303
So what we do is we start working on their SEO right away, but we also get up pay-per click advertising right away.

00:22:16.845 --> 00:22:19.310
And pay-per-click advertising there is a learning period.

00:22:19.310 --> 00:22:23.008
So there's three weeks after you launch your ads where you shouldn't expect magic.

00:22:23.008 --> 00:22:24.672
Google kind of has to eat your money.

00:22:24.672 --> 00:22:36.028
But after those three weeks you should for sure be seeing leads come in through Google Cost Per Click, and what that does is, even though you're paying for those leads, it's enough to support your business.

00:22:36.028 --> 00:22:42.131
So you're getting that increase that you need to pay for the marketing, to pay for the SEO right.

00:22:42.584 --> 00:22:50.987
And then when you get to a point where the SEO right and then when you get to a point where the SEO starts working and you're ranking organically for those terms that you've been paying for.

00:22:50.987 --> 00:23:04.873
Then we start to decide do we pull back on the paid advertising or do you want to kind of experience that hockey stick growth where both SEO and PPC is working for you and you can get into a scale phase for your business?

00:23:04.873 --> 00:23:13.686
So or do you want to take that money you know now that you're ranking organically for that service and reinvest it in a different service line that you're trying to grow?

00:23:13.686 --> 00:23:25.173
So it's really all about getting you leads right away and then managing your advertising in a way that's responsible for your business with the rate that you want to grow at.

00:23:26.056 --> 00:23:27.185
Yeah, tiff, I'll tell you what.

00:23:27.185 --> 00:23:32.528
I really appreciate your transparency here because it's so clear to see the roadmap that you bring to clients.

00:23:32.528 --> 00:23:44.467
Obviously, we're using so many building analogies here today because it is my word of the year, but I really appreciate your approach with that because it is that careful blend and actually careful is not the word I want to use there, I want to use intentional.

00:23:44.467 --> 00:23:49.287
It just seems like so much of it is intentional out of the gates for you and it really is balanced.

00:23:49.367 --> 00:23:55.398
Hearing you talk about that Part of it is when I look for the similarities between both of those approaches.

00:23:55.398 --> 00:23:58.156
Obviously, keywords are at the root of so much of it.

00:23:58.156 --> 00:24:05.265
If I'm going to launch a pay-per-click advertising campaign, I have to determine when people are searching for what do I want to show up?

00:24:05.265 --> 00:24:14.934
And then hearing you align that with your SEO efforts to either tamper down your ad spending or ramp it up so that you're, you said, the hockey stick growth curve.

00:24:14.934 --> 00:24:20.567
How do you go about your keyword research?

00:24:20.567 --> 00:24:27.256
And I know that you could probably give an entire masterclass on keywords and SEO and all the elements that go behind it, but let's talk keywords for listeners who have never gone down that path.

00:24:28.058 --> 00:24:31.166
Oh, this is one of my favorite topics and it's where we start with each client.

00:24:31.166 --> 00:24:38.817
So we make a keyword times, local matrix, and what that really is is it's a combination of all of your services and your service areas.

00:24:38.817 --> 00:24:56.017
So, for example, maybe your spreadsheet size, kitchen, bath, basement and the services you're providing are remodeling, renovation, and your service area is Ohio, Then what we do is we actually take every combination of those terms, so like kitchen remodeling Ohio, bathroom remodeling Ohio.

00:24:56.017 --> 00:25:08.086
And what we do is we actually take every combination of those terms, so like kitchen remodeling Ohio, bathroom remodeling Ohio, and we use that as the basis for keyword research to find out in your area what people are searching for, the volume, so how many people are searching for that.

00:25:08.086 --> 00:25:15.811
And then the difficulty of that right Is it, is it really easy to to rank for that term or is it hard to rank for that term?

00:25:16.605 --> 00:25:31.092
And based on that, we'll have a pretty good idea of, for each of kind of your service buckets, what is going to be hard for you to do organically versus what's gonna be easier for you to do organically and the cost of you to pay for those.

00:25:31.644 --> 00:25:34.252
And that really helps us kind of decide with the client.

00:25:34.252 --> 00:25:37.128
How should we prioritize what you're going after here?

00:25:37.128 --> 00:25:47.228
And really this not only takes into account, like, the difficulty of those terms or how much you're going to pay for it, but how much do you profit off each of those services.

00:25:47.228 --> 00:25:58.278
So when we're setting up our ad groups, we do it in a way that your services are bucketed so that at the end of the day, we can calculate back your cost per lead but also your return on ad spend.

00:25:58.278 --> 00:26:09.811
Right, A lead for kitchen renovations might be three times as expensive as a lead for bathroom renovations, but maybe you make five times as much and so it justifies that cost.

00:26:09.811 --> 00:26:25.961
So really starting out with your service buckets or your product buckets and then aligning your campaigns that way is really helpful to have that kind of like conscientious cost control to make sure you're spending your dollars the most in the most efficient manner.

00:26:26.845 --> 00:26:31.191
Yeah, tiff, I think that just showcases why it's so valuable to work with an expert like you.

00:26:31.511 --> 00:26:55.373
You just showed us so many different variables that you're balancing all at the same time Cost, the ability to rank within certain regards, the volume that is within each of those, the business considerations layered on top of all of these considerations that drive the decision making, and obviously there's an entire backend that we haven't even touched on today about measuring success and tracking those leads and attribution tracking.

00:26:55.373 --> 00:26:56.816
All of that is super important.

00:26:56.816 --> 00:27:13.453
I know we're not going to have time today to cover all of that, but I do want to transition to talk to you entrepreneur to entrepreneur, not just as the marketing expert that you are, but I love your entrepreneurial journey from a side hustle to going full time and having a full client of roster or a full roster of clients.

00:27:13.453 --> 00:27:22.148
Talk to us about that because for a lot of people you said it your husband was telling you, people that you were seeing at picnics were telling you to start your own business.

00:27:22.148 --> 00:27:29.114
What was that transition period actually like for you when you finally decided to take the dive and start your business?

00:27:29.915 --> 00:27:30.938
You know, it was a little.

00:27:30.938 --> 00:27:33.088
I think there was just a moment.

00:27:33.088 --> 00:27:42.057
I had like a hard week at work and I was just like, okay, I'm just going to spend one day on the weekend just changing my site a little bit.

00:27:42.057 --> 00:27:49.931
Let's narrow down my focus, let's let's try and focus on AEC, let's refine things a little bit, and then let's put some ads up as a test.

00:27:49.931 --> 00:27:56.938
And after I got out of kind of that three week learning period with Google, I started getting leads and the first couple that came in I was like, okay, cool.

00:27:57.665 --> 00:28:04.057
It's a little bit weird when you're in marketing, you know these things work, but to apply it to your own business feels you're like, ah, this will never work.

00:28:04.057 --> 00:28:10.290
The leads started coming in and it was those first few calls where I was like, oh, I might have something here.

00:28:10.290 --> 00:28:19.409
And it happened so quickly that it felt like a mad dash to like put together a finance sheet and say, wait, could this actually work?

00:28:19.409 --> 00:28:21.232
Can I actually quit my job?

00:28:21.232 --> 00:28:24.309
And then, even speaking with my husband, I showed him the finance sheet.

00:28:24.309 --> 00:28:25.959
I was like we're actually gonna be fine.

00:28:25.959 --> 00:28:30.051
Like, even if I didn't get another client for a year, financially we'd be, we'd be fine.

00:28:30.051 --> 00:28:36.748
So it's kind of like a journey of not believing and then finally being like, oh, this could.

00:28:37.067 --> 00:28:46.355
And I think I think for anyone that has been saying, oh, I could be an entrepreneur, I could be an entrepreneur it's I forgot who said who says it.

00:28:46.355 --> 00:28:54.280
But there's this, this idea of like do now ask questions later, like do now plan later, right?

00:28:54.280 --> 00:29:02.917
Like throw something out and and just see, see if you can get a little bit of traction and then ride that, that tailwind.

00:29:02.917 --> 00:29:09.269
Because if you don't ever put out that one test, if you don't ever start you're, you're still never going to get anywhere.

00:29:09.269 --> 00:29:11.556
So just take a chance.

00:29:12.244 --> 00:29:17.307
Yeah, and you use the tailwind term right there, which reminds me my favorite Amelia Earhart quote ever is.

00:29:17.307 --> 00:29:19.255
She said always think with your stick forward.

00:29:19.255 --> 00:29:26.732
If you're flying, you just have to keep on accelerating and figuring it all out along the way, which is part of the nature of being an entrepreneur.

00:29:26.732 --> 00:29:27.936
Which Tiff it leads me to?

00:29:27.936 --> 00:29:30.585
I want to ask you this because obviously you love marketing.

00:29:30.585 --> 00:29:37.891
That is so evident here in today's session and I also know that as business owners, as entrepreneurs, we're not just practitioners.

00:29:37.891 --> 00:29:41.288
You don't just get to do marketing these days, you are also a business owner.

00:29:41.288 --> 00:29:46.810
You're managing those client relationships, you are managing the accounting, the financial outlook of your business.

00:29:46.810 --> 00:29:49.627
There's so much operationally that goes on behind the scenes.

00:29:49.627 --> 00:29:53.076
So talk to us about your take on that side of the world.

00:29:56.884 --> 00:29:58.028
You know I enjoy it because I'm a very big like planner.

00:29:58.028 --> 00:30:08.948
But I will say the one thing that surprised me so much is how difficult it is as a small business to secure top tier health benefits, top tier 401k, Like I thought it was just going to be.

00:30:08.948 --> 00:30:14.750
I'm going to go to Google, I'm going to be like I need health insurance, I'm going to hire my first employee, bam, like it would be done.

00:30:14.750 --> 00:30:25.208
No, it's like if you're a small business, you have to jump through hoops to get like PPO insurance or provide really good coverage, and so that's one of the things that surprised me most.

00:30:25.208 --> 00:30:36.378
That I would say get a head start on that If you're trying to scale and you want to hire, is making sure you're you're securing things so that you can bring in top talent with those benefits.

00:30:37.164 --> 00:30:38.669
Yes, absolutely true.

00:30:38.669 --> 00:30:41.978
I don't think I'm actually going to take this way beyond entrepreneurship.

00:30:41.978 --> 00:30:46.807
I don't think societally, we talk about this stuff enough how difficult it is for small business owners.

00:30:46.807 --> 00:31:03.016
So we're definitely preaching to the choir here, Tiff, and I so appreciate that, but I think it is an important conversation and consideration for all of us, especially you and I have the luxury of being full-time entrepreneurs, but it presents these challenges that we must address, so I love the fact that you're bringing that into the conversation.

00:31:03.365 --> 00:31:10.653
I want to ask you about the time horizon that you look at, because I do view you I said it at the top of this episode about you being a builder at heart.

00:31:10.653 --> 00:31:19.609
It shows in the types of clients that you enjoy working with and I actually think even more so, it really shows in your approach, the strategy that you use for your own business as well as clients.

00:31:19.609 --> 00:31:21.942
What's the time horizon that you're looking out to?

00:31:21.942 --> 00:31:25.898
Because you've mentioned AI and the world is always changing, especially in your industry.

00:31:25.898 --> 00:31:28.166
What is it that you're looking towards?

00:31:28.166 --> 00:31:30.796
What is it that you're planning towards when you think about the future?

00:31:36.785 --> 00:31:40.196
So for time horizon, like a lot of our clients are on annual commitment, so we can think pretty far out because we have deals secured.

00:31:40.196 --> 00:31:51.609
But to be honest, from a business scaling perspective, it's more of a three month time horizon, just because kind of the nature of the rate at which we're growing at.

00:31:51.609 --> 00:31:55.116
So we'll typically know okay, in the next three months.

00:31:55.116 --> 00:31:58.957
You know we've reached our capacity, so we'll have to hire again.

00:31:58.957 --> 00:32:09.645
So from a financial planning perspective, a year, but definitely from a are we going to actually act on those plans Closer to three months?

00:32:10.269 --> 00:32:26.190
Yes, I'm so glad that you shared that with us because, tiff, when I was sitting in business school classrooms back when I was in college, a lot of professors talk to you about having your three, five, 10 year plan, and the more that I ask this question here on the show, it always comes back to 30, 60, 90.

00:32:26.190 --> 00:32:30.207
Everyone's just like those are actionable timelines where you can get stuff done.

00:32:30.207 --> 00:32:34.296
You can be focused enough to have a singular goal and you can actually achieve it.

00:32:34.296 --> 00:32:38.633
So hearing the mind of a real life entrepreneur is super valuable.

00:32:38.633 --> 00:32:40.336
So I really appreciate those insights.

00:32:40.704 --> 00:32:45.689
And, tiff, I knew we'd be short on time today because we are both marketing junkies and we could talk about this stuff for days.

00:32:45.689 --> 00:32:59.777
But I'm going to ask you this question that we ask at the end of every episode and that's the one takeaway for listeners who inevitably will feel challenged about the way that they strategically view their marketing and their growth plans and their ability to go get more clients.

00:32:59.777 --> 00:33:04.826
You've put so much of that on show for us here today, also tapped into your mind as an entrepreneur.

00:33:04.826 --> 00:33:06.652
So what's that one takeaway?

00:33:06.652 --> 00:33:09.586
What's the one thing you hope everyone walks away from today's episode with?

00:33:10.626 --> 00:33:20.675
It doesn't matter if you can drive traffic to your website or you know it doesn't matter if you can drive traffic to your website or you know phone calls to your phone if what you say when they get there doesn't land.

00:33:20.675 --> 00:33:27.961
And so review what you're saying when they get to that landing spot and see if you can say less.

00:33:27.961 --> 00:33:35.136
Right, this could be you pitching to your significant other or a friend.

00:33:35.136 --> 00:33:36.125
It could be you reviewing your website copy.

00:33:36.125 --> 00:33:44.425
Find the places where you are qualifying, where you are discrediting yourself, and find a way to remove them.

00:33:44.425 --> 00:33:48.954
That way, you're not creating blockers to get people to you.

00:33:50.257 --> 00:33:51.665
Yes, tiff, I'll tell you what.

00:33:51.665 --> 00:34:03.452
900 some odd episodes, and we continue to hear incredible advice from guests like you that are unique, and I think it is a really poignant challenge for all listeners, whether you're a wantrepreneur or an entrepreneur.

00:34:03.452 --> 00:34:08.554
That's actionable advice from Tiff right there that we can all incorporate into our businesses.

00:34:08.554 --> 00:34:11.775
So, tiff, I know that listeners are going to be excited to see your website.

00:34:11.775 --> 00:34:19.050
We've talked about it quite a bit during today's episode, but I'm also just gonna toot your horn a little bit, because you practice what you preach and it's on full display.

00:34:19.050 --> 00:34:25.755
When you talked about launching your own ad campaigns, I always love that notion of the cobbler's son has no shoes.

00:34:25.755 --> 00:34:34.135
You are a shining example of the fact that the cobbler's son does indeed have shoes, and you are out there mastering your messaging.

00:34:34.135 --> 00:34:40.637
I love the way that you say less on your website, and it's so abundantly clear what you do, who you serve and how you serve them.

00:34:40.637 --> 00:34:42.347
So drop those links on us.

00:34:42.347 --> 00:34:43.871
Where should listeners go from here?

00:34:45.114 --> 00:34:46.697
Check it out, it's novarmarketingcom.

00:34:47.625 --> 00:34:49.487
Yes, and listeners, you already know the drill.

00:34:49.487 --> 00:34:58.201
We're making it as easy as possible for you to find a link to TIFF's business website at novrmarketingcom, that's N-O-V-E-R marketingcom.

00:34:58.201 --> 00:35:02.989
You can find that link down below, wherever it is that you're tuning into today's episode, and just click right on through.

00:35:02.989 --> 00:35:05.927
We're also linking to Tiff's personal LinkedIn in the show notes.

00:35:05.927 --> 00:35:10.407
So if you want to reach out to her, have a marketing conversation with her, just thank her for sharing her insights.

00:35:10.407 --> 00:35:13.632
Do not be shy, because most podcast listeners are.

00:35:13.632 --> 00:35:17.418
Take it from me as someone who interacts with so many of you Don't be shy.

00:35:17.418 --> 00:35:22.315
Tiff, on behalf of myself and all the listeners worldwide, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

00:35:23.385 --> 00:35:24.632
Thank you so much for having me, Brian.

00:35:25.346 --> 00:35:30.907
Hey, it's Brian here, and thanks for tuning in to yet another episode of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.

00:35:30.907 --> 00:35:34.878
If you haven't checked us out online, there's so much good stuff there.

00:35:34.878 --> 00:35:44.117
Check out the show's website and all the show notes that we talked about in today's episode at the wantrepreneurshowcom, and I just want to give a shout out to our amazing guests.

00:35:44.117 --> 00:35:52.893
There's a reason why we are ad free and have produced so many incredible episodes five days a week for you, and it's because our guests step up to the plate.

00:35:52.954 --> 00:35:54.938
These are not sponsored episodes.

00:35:54.938 --> 00:36:01.407
These are not infomercials.

00:36:01.407 --> 00:36:03.134
Our guests help us cover the costs of our productions.

00:36:03.134 --> 00:36:10.996
They so deeply believe in the power of getting their message out in front of you, awesome entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, that they contribute to help us make these productions possible.

00:36:10.996 --> 00:36:19.494
So thank you to not only today's guests, but all of our guests in general, and I just want to invite you check out our website because you can send us a voicemail there.

00:36:19.494 --> 00:36:20.826
We also have live chat.

00:36:20.826 --> 00:36:25.436
If you want to interact directly with me, go to thewantrepreneurshowcom.

00:36:25.436 --> 00:36:26.865
Initiate a live chat.

00:36:26.865 --> 00:36:36.251
It's for real me, and I'm excited because I'll see you, as always every Monday, wednesday, friday, saturday and Sunday here on the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.