819: A hiring REVOLUTION that ACTUALLY creates culture w/ Topher Deutschman

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Hey, what is up?

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Welcome to this episode of the entrepreneur to entrepreneur podcast.

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As always, I'm your host, Brian Lofermento, and I'm so excited for today's guest because he has been an entrepreneur for quite some time now.

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He has so much experience in all different facets of business and entrepreneurship and he's really going to open our eyes to so many different components that go into running and growing successful businesses.

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So let me tell you all about today's guest.

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His name is Tofer Deutschman.

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Tofer is an experienced owner, leader and strategist.

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He's a lifelong entrepreneur that's launched, bought, built, managed and sold businesses Everything from his first lemonade stand, a college side hustle e-commerce business, two restaurants, a wine and spirits distribution company, and now Jombine, which is a recruiting platform that he's going to share so many insights with us about here today.

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He's his expertise in focus in organizational behavior, culture, team development, talent management, business development and corporate strategy.

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He has his bachelor of science degree in industrial and labor relations from Cornell University, so he's a wicked smart guy, as we say in Boston, One thing that I absolutely love about him we're going to talk about culture today.

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He specifically wrote ahead of our interview here today.

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He said culture isn't about having a foosball table in the break room or casual Fridays.

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It's so much deeper than that.

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So that's a little teaser.

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We're going to learn so much today.

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I'm not going to say anything else.

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Let's dive straight into my interview with Topher Deutschman.

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All right, Topher, I am honestly so excited that you're here today.

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Welcome to the show.

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Brian, it is great to be here.

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Thanks for having me on.

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Heck, yeah, I tease listeners a little bit.

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I don't even know all the brilliance I'm going to get to extract from you here today.

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But first things first.

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Take us beyond the bio.

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Who the heck is Topher?

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How'd you get into all these amazing things that you've done?

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Well, brian, I really I appreciate that.

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I really appreciate this format to helping entrepreneurs.

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I've been one of those lifelong entrepreneurs, right as a kid, you know.

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The cool thing, though, brian, is, I feel like my story is just getting started, right.

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So, starting from, you know, one of being a lifelong entrepreneur that kid that had the lemonade stand that they'd even turned it into like this hilarious bodega that I wanted to upsell even more than just lemonade, so I mean we're talking everything from cookies to CDs to electronics.

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I had the whole neighborhood out there kind of helping.

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I'm also the guy, as you said, right, that started the college e-commerce business, just honestly, just for some beer money, right.

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But really I feel like a lot of my journey and kind of understanding of business started in college with my degree in industrial labor relations and the basis of organizational behavior, labor dynamics, hr, just the understanding of people in the side of business being so much more than just a product and finding ways of marketing and copywriting.

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You know, truly, we're here in the workplace.

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You know we spend a third of our lives working.

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So how do those dynamics work?

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And so, after a start in the corporate world, my wife and I we were crazy.

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We said, hey, let's buy a restaurant.

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We found a local neighborhood restaurant right down the street and right before the 2008 economy crash, we said, hey, let's buy this restaurant and make a go at it.

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And, man, do we learn a lot during those days and we ended up being like one of the top foodie restaurants in Boulder County.

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It led to us opening a second restaurant down in Denver, colorado, and then I learned the valuable lesson of having to close my first business, which is part of the gig and part of, I think, learning from our failures.

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But really it was after exiting that first restaurant and selling, I started a company called Blue Sky, which we grew over six years and exited in 2017.

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And this is really where I really honed in building a business around culture and around people.

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It's also funny enough, actually, where I first came up with the idea of John Bein, all the way back in 2015.

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And I use the concept of John Bein.

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What it is today, what I'm excited to tell everybody listening about, is how to really structure our business lives around these sort of important culture pieces, and so that leads to today.

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After COVID, I kind of pulled John Bein off the shelf and today we run John Bein.

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It's a recruiting platform and hiring ecosystem that's all about trying to fix the way we hire, just for the betterment of our workplaces.

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And John Bein, it's really built like the NFL Combine.

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So job plus combine equals John Bein.

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But instead of making our candidates run like a 40 yard dash, we put them through this full evaluation program which consists of deep dive profiles and our workplace DNA assessments, video interviews, references and more.

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And then, in addition, our platform is backed by our agents, which is kind of like our version of recruiters.

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And today our agents myself included on my own agent support companies and candidates through a host of competitive differentiations compared to how typical recruiters operate.

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But it's all in the heart of improving how the workplace hires and get hired.

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We're essentially to kind of coin.

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We're like the remax of recruiters, or is my awesome daughter put it?

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I'm an entrepreneur helping other entrepreneurs, so hopefully that gives a good background for you, brian.

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Yeah, I love that Tover.

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It actually gives us so many places to launch from.

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But, first and foremost, what I really want to get into you talked about I love that illustration.

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I love the story of the people, persons.

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When you talk about the NFL combine, I can picture that, putting people through their paces and actually deciding hey, here's the traits that we all look for.

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Obviously, we've heard the stories of the Tom Brady's of the world being overlooked because of those combines, which obviously speaks to so many intangibles that also go along with success, and to from using all of this as a big transition to talk about one of your intangibles as an entrepreneur.

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I can recognize it when I see it and that is you are a hustler.

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I mean, starting so young and it's something I obviously relate to is you and I both started our first businesses when we were in college and it's that hustler mentality that I think, somewhere along the way to offer, you and I were wired a bit weird where we never worried about the how, we just worried about the what, and we knew we'd always figure it out with that in mind.

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Talk to us about that, because, hearing your journey, obviously and you've heard some episodes it's, it's never a linear path for any entrepreneur.

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Walk us through what's at the root of that mindset where you've just said you know what.

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I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I know I'm going to figure it out.

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Brian, that's such an interesting question, Such a good question it's.

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I thought about this a lot.

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I've read a ton of books to try to understand me right, like just my own DNA, like why am I wired this way?

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I mean, both my parents are entrepreneurs my, my mom and dad both had businesses.

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So I grew up in that environment and at the same time, you know, I've had a lot of mentors on the other side.

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My father-in-law is this amazing mentor as well and but he was a John Deere employee coming to executive for 40 years, right.

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So kind of seeing both sides and how that business works, I think it's I think you put it in the right way Like we're wired a little bit with kind of that crazy gene right Of how do we go out and maybe start something on our own as a builder, as a?

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I remember all the way back in elementary school, one of the I mean I can remember this as nine, 10 years old, maybe even prior.

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You know teachers, what do you want to be when you grow up?

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And I said I wanted to be an inventor, but I was never that sort of person that that knew how to build or take something apart and rebuild it together.

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But I realized that's entrepreneurship, right, it's inventing, it's today, and I also mean I have to give a shout out to, like even my business partner.

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So big shout out to Jordan here and who's coming along this whole journey with me, with, with John byne it's, it's really aligning to the sort of journey of invention and then bringing people along that can also help invent as part of the process, and so that could be a marketing material that could be.

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We developed like literally this whole John byne platform from scratch, just as an idea.

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I mean literally started as an napkin sketch and and how do you build it?

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Right, that's to me that's inventing, and I think that that's a big piece of maybe what's come out of those sort of crazy genes that that's, you know, have marked my entrepreneurship over the years.

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Yeah, I love the way that you answered that, and especially because, yeah, you're right.

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I mean, you've said the word DNA a few times already in our conversation today and I think that it genuinely is for us and that's why, for all of you crazy one trip, an art entrepreneur, listeners in over 150 countries it's in our DNA, we can't ignore it, which is why, if you have that feeling it's something that can't just simply be stopped, we will probably never be happy if we ever have a nine to five job, and it's because it is so at the root of what we believe in.

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It's not merely that we do it for the money, gosh.

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There's a lot of things that we could do for the money that are probably a lot easier than the path that we've all chosen, but it really is at that, that molecular level, that this is what we're meant to do.

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And in Tofer, I've never talked about this on the air.

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I think that you're the perfect guest for us to have this conversation in front of everybody here today, but I've always believed that every venture that we pivot to and transition to it actually reveals the biggest things from what we've learned up to that point.

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So, just like you, you know, I went from a soccer blog to a marketing agency, to consulting agencies, to a book, to a podcast, to retreats, to all of these things.

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And it's funny for me because people always say, well, those things don't fit together and in my head I'm like no, my soccer blog taught me about marketing, which is when I started a marketing agency, and growing an agency and having a business partner and having clients taught me about actual business structure.

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So all of these things led to the next, and it's really the building blocks that have got me to where I am today, which Tofer for your journey.

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I think it's fascinating when I look at, you know, e-commerce business to restaurants, to a distribution company, to now combine.

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In my head I'm just like there's something about people and there's something about recruiting and hiring and building a team culture that was pervasive in all of your prior endeavors.

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That led you to hear.

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Talk to us about that what seems like a natural evolution.

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I know it didn't feel natural in those moments, but talk to us about why that's the thing that stood out after all these ventures.

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That's great.

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So this is something I actually help candidates and coach our candidates with is understanding their story arc and as writing a story right and I think that we all have kind of these like one of my favorite books is the Odyssey and how that story evolves and how crazy it is from adventure to adventure, but it all is tied together to a journey and I think that's part of what we need to understand when we're finding the right company right, or when we're choosing what our workplace purpose is, or, heck, even when, if I want to be an entrepreneur, I want to own my own business, well, what industry should I go into?

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And there was a big realization later on in my life Actually, I mean not even that long ago, we're talking a couple years where I really transitioned from understanding myself through my passions versus my purpose, and I feel like that was one of the big things that I was missing early on in my career as I was navigating my entrepreneurial journey was I was chasing a lot of passions right.

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I was chasing the things that that I thought would be fulfilling in terms of what would happen in the workplace and I can you know there's a big story behind that with just kind of family and then some health struggles with people in my family you know dealing with.

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We're a family of workaholics.

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We love to work, we love to create, we love to invent right, we love to build and then work our tails off.

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So you know, you'd think like, oh, starting a restaurant or starting a really cool boutique, one in spirits distribution company, like there's so much fun and and kind of you know, hip and coolness around it, and then that was all through the feedback that I would get.

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And I think what I realized is that that you know, we can turn our passions into something we don't like if it becomes work right and and and so it's really aligning to those purposeful pieces.

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So, just to kind of sum it up, it was really understanding.

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It's like what do I?

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What are my gifts to the world?

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Versus the gifts to me, you know the gifts given to me from the world, and that was really understanding that I had this deep passion from my education that I could apply to my every day, and that was understanding people and getting to know people, managing and hiring and built around the idea of just everyone rowing in the same direction, you know, and being that powerful team.

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I'm a big sports guy.

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I played lacrosse and football in college and I've been coaching out here for like 20 years and I just love the sort of team aspect.

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Right, you don't have to have all star players, you have to have a really strong, cohesive team.

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So to me that was what was threaded, brian, for my whole career and really helped define this next stage of my career journey.

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It's like to me that's the story that it tells is, how do I take all of these things that are purposeful in my life, that I could even call like my kingdom purpose of why I'm here?

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What makes me tip?

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I'm willing to work my tail off, but what's going to wake me up in the morning and get me excited, right, and want?

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It's going to drive me to want to create more, invent more, but also deal with the crud that happens in entrepreneurship, right, the tough times, the you know, the failures that you have to overcome, just the grittiness that it takes, the resilience, and really it was that understanding of, for me, what was those common threads throughout my life, and it wasn't just chasing passions, it wasn't just that I just want time, freedom or try to make more money, because I certainly kind of chose the wrong things by getting into restaurants and distribution, but I think I'm holding in on that now.

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That's why I say that when my story is just getting started, I feel like this next level is going to be this beautiful story that really kind of tells that sort of purposeful journey in my entrepreneurship.

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Yeah, gosh, topher, I'm so grateful that you said that here in the air, because listeners I want to call this out for all of you is that?

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Topher and I may sound like two old heads here talking about you know more than a decade for each of us in doing our own entrepreneurial journeys, but it always feels like we're just starting out.

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At hearing you talk about this so openly, topher, it's something that I resonate with and that I relate to, because I'm just like I constantly feel like I'm evolving and then constantly re-evolving.

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So I love the fact that you called that out.

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And also, I think this is the first time I've actually ever heard someone openly make that differentiation between passion and purpose.

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And again, it relates with me so much of this because I'm sure that we're similar in the fact that it's easy for us to get excited.

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I'm very easily excitable, it doesn't take much, especially because it's that one trait that you talked about.

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I'm so willing to do the work.

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If you tell me anything and get me excited about it, I'm willing to do the work.

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I'd love to hear you directly address it, because everyone talks about it so differently and I don't think we talk about it openly enough.

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Is that concept of we hear the water down advice, of follow your passions and you just showed us a real life anecdote about how you've navigated those waters.

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But talk to us for those listeners, because I'm sure a lot of them are saying I've heard that advice before.

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But Topher, you're saying something different.

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It's not follow your passions, it's.

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I think it's an even harder question of how the heck do we even figure out our purpose?

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How do we even approach that Right?

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It's so hard it is.

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It's so hard and it could take a lifetime to figure that out.

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It's going to shift and transition.

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And again, I mean, this is not just for entrepreneurs, this is for anyone in life and it dials back to the whole culture.

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Like part of understanding what a company culture is is also understanding what your personal culture is, and I think that that really aligns well with the idea of our purpose.

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And when I say like kingdom purpose, it's like why was I put on this earth?

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You know what can I contribute back to this world?

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And so often and this is like one of my pet peeves I try not to be negative, right, I love positivity, but one of my pet peeves is when I see a lot of sort of gurus online talking about, well, you can make a lot of money doing you know, amazon, dropship and those sort of things, and it doesn't even matter what you sell, you know you can navigate that sort of world.

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And to me that seems like such a wasted opportunity of bright people and driven people.

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And yeah, sure, we can start businesses.

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That we're.

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We have no purpose behind it, we're just doing it to make money, but I feel like that's a big miss.

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In our world today and our entrepreneurial world, we have so many businesses that are founded by people that they just got in because and and they can't really attribute it to their why right, and I've heard a lot of your previous guests talk about the importance of why, and you know even people like Simon Sinek like just the idea of finding your why being so important.

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That's your culture, right, and you know you can get into a business just to make money, but are you going to be truly not just fulfilled yourself but can fulfill others?

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And to me, that's that's the key in business.

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That's what's differentiated a lot of what my journey is, especially in this next stage with John Vine, is how can I give back to the world in a meaningful way?

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To me isn't that like part of our legacy, and there were so many businesses.

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Brian, it sounds like you and I are very similar that you kind of like would I want to do that Could I do that?

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You know, could I make money, could, it could provide the lifestyle design that I want, but ultimately it's a.

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I believe at least we need to make sacrifices in our life that are truly supporting what that purpose is, and that, to me, is what the true legacy that we can give back to our kids, our community, our neighbors, and maybe even beyond.

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Gosh, topher, you're giving me chills here on the air because I feel like so frequently in the world of entrepreneurship, we're told to build the life that we want, and I'll be honest with you.

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So much for our conversation here today.

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I'm literally getting chills up into my arms is because I always reflect on the facts that I wish I could live my life that way.

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I genuinely do, topher.

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I wish that I could wake up in the morning and only do things for me.

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However, there's something inside of me that I'm always driven by being of service to others.

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It's the only reason why I run a five day a week podcast, and so there's a lot of work that goes behind that, and I think you just hit on the most important word that touches upon this topic, which is sacrifice.

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Yeah, could we live a very self-serving life?

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Of course we can, but we must sacrifice some of what we want to be of service to others, and I think that, ultimately, that's the stuff that really lights me up, and so you could come full circle and say that it's actually selfish in the end and it's self-serving in the end, because that is the very stuff serving others is what gets me out of bed in the morning.

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So I love the fact that you're illuminating all of these things from such a place of experience and wisdom and, along those lines, I really enjoy the way that you disregard a lot of kind of the fluffy advice and the fluffy stuff that a lot of people say in the world of entrepreneurship.

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Specifically regarding I'm so excited to go here with you culture You've called it out.

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All of our listeners know we ask our guests for their zone of genius.

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Topher, you were a harsh critic.

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You said you cut through the BS of vision statements and bland values and you really get at the root of what makes a company operate.

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Talk to us about culture.

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You've got some strong opinions there and I'm dying to hear them.

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Yeah, I appreciate that and just the platform to be able to talk about culture, because I think it is our opportunity as business people to really align other people into not only our journey and our vision, our inventions, our care for the world, our stack of all those sort of pieces, but we were able to give back in ways that are pretty powerful to other people.

00:20:45,425 --> 00:21:01,367
But it's really important to understand those sort of cultural elements and sometimes we have to make really hard decisions in those culture pieces that could be laying people off that are good employees or top salespeople.

00:21:01,367 --> 00:21:07,047
But ultimately, what we're seeing in the workplace right now is just a lot of unhappiness.

00:21:07,047 --> 00:21:10,164
This was part of the reason that I just had that heart.

00:21:10,164 --> 00:21:15,507
I just felt called to again launch a company like Johnbine.

00:21:15,507 --> 00:21:21,926
I left a great job, a great company that I loved.

00:21:21,926 --> 00:21:22,929
I felt supported.

00:21:22,929 --> 00:21:29,934
I was a company man for several years before Johnbine, but it wasn't that I was unhappy.

00:21:29,934 --> 00:21:34,335
I just felt the need to really support so much pain.

00:21:34,335 --> 00:21:39,586
I mean 81% of people they're just statistic 81% of people aren't unhappy in their job.

00:21:39,586 --> 00:21:46,048
Over half of those people would leave the job literally tomorrow with the right offer.

00:21:46,048 --> 00:21:49,894
To me, that just shows so much pain in the way that we hire.

00:21:50,134 --> 00:22:01,515
But I think when we talk about culture, it really boils down to so much more than just the elements, the feel, the vibe that we give in our workplace.

00:22:01,515 --> 00:22:10,946
And so often when I'm working with a client, we talk about culture and I want to be mindful and purposeful that culture can be bastardized Right.

00:22:10,946 --> 00:22:20,705
We talk a lot at Johnbine about what is maybe a better word even than culture, because it's so much more encompassing and I think that we've used it as this very touchy-feely thing.

00:22:20,705 --> 00:22:26,247
But what I look at, culture is what are the true company values that are at play?

00:22:26,247 --> 00:22:29,076
What are the management styles Like?

00:22:29,076 --> 00:22:45,661
One of my favorite examples that I use with clients is if you are one of the I'll use a sports analogy here the top passing quarterback offensive scheme coaches, you're not bringing on and drafting the best running quarterback.

00:22:45,661 --> 00:22:46,795
It won't fit the scheme.

00:22:46,795 --> 00:22:49,076
But so often we do that in the workplace.

00:22:49,630 --> 00:22:54,201
We may have a specific management style that I don't know call it like data analytics.

00:22:54,201 --> 00:23:02,723
We love using data analytics and KPIs and that sort of thing to track our efforts.

00:23:02,723 --> 00:23:09,135
So you could bring on the best salesperson in the world that has this amazing network and Rolodex and everything else.

00:23:09,135 --> 00:23:15,602
But if they don't align with doing well with KPIs and analytics, there's going to be clashing there.

00:23:15,602 --> 00:23:18,457
And then what happens to the rest of the team?

00:23:18,457 --> 00:23:29,980
What happens if this person is a top salesperson but is not filling out the CRM every day and is it going to clash with our departments and cross departments?

00:23:29,980 --> 00:23:36,317
Are you going to have younger people that are going to see that and be like, well, if the top salesperson is doing it, I'm not going to do it.

00:23:38,049 --> 00:23:53,000
Maybe your culture is totally okay with that, maybe it's this very individualistic culture and you can mine those sort of gaps, or maybe it's like a team inclusive culture and having everyone understanding of the right systems and programs is going to be really important.

00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,400
So it's not just understanding that I like to manage through KPIs and data analytics.

00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:03,582
How are we able to manage the team as a whole to really execute those sort of goals?

00:24:03,582 --> 00:24:16,762
So when we dig in with clients and just over the years and managing people, we get into the nitty-gritty beyond so much deeper than just the work perks that were given to our employees.

00:24:16,762 --> 00:24:28,876
It is truly like what am I able to offer as a leader, what are my colleagues able to offer as leaders and what is going to work best.

00:24:29,369 --> 00:24:33,640
Do I have the finances to be able to allow for X, y or Z?

00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:39,800
And so, diving into all of those pieces, I mean, heck the work environments, right.

00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:47,222
Do we want a culture that everyone is on headphones or do we want high water, cooler talk sort of culture?

00:24:47,222 --> 00:24:58,259
I mean, brian, there are literally 50 plus elements that we could dig into when you think about culture and that's part of the consulting that we love doing at John Byne.

00:24:58,259 --> 00:24:59,531
To me, that's our best.

00:24:59,531 --> 00:25:09,760
Partners is when we get to consult with them and it's top down there's like overall company values, right, and then there's like the individual team values and those could differ a lot.

00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:21,821
So it's really understanding those core pieces between really all parties and then attacking the market to align people that are going to mesh best with those sort of cultural elements.

00:25:22,530 --> 00:25:43,974
Yeah, it's really interesting hearing you talk about this tophor, because I feel like when someone expects to hear, oh, someone who owns a recruiting business, you're going to talk about the elements of hiring, the elements of interviewing, the elements of finding the right talent to even talk to, but instead what I keep hearing you say is words like team environment, all of these things, and you're right, you make such really good points.

00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:52,580
I think the sports analogy is really illustrated for me, where not every you know you take the wrong player and you put them in Bill Belichick's prime new England Patriots team.

00:25:52,580 --> 00:26:05,911
That is not going to be a good fit, and we saw when Tom Brady moved down here to Tampa Bay is that he instead started operating under a head coach that says hey, players first, this is not an authoritarian regime, you can do it you want.

00:26:05,911 --> 00:26:10,594
It's an entirely different system that works or doesn't work depending on the players that are fitting into that.

00:26:10,594 --> 00:26:14,976
Which tophor with an audience of entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs all all over the world.

00:26:14,976 --> 00:26:18,299
I can't help but think well, do we just choose our culture?

00:26:18,299 --> 00:26:20,535
Like, where do we actually find that?

00:26:23,230 --> 00:26:24,074
I don't think you find it.

00:26:24,074 --> 00:26:29,220
I think you create it and you have to be really deliberate in that creation.

00:26:29,220 --> 00:26:40,661
I think that inherently, there are going to be some pieces that that are are being created by the industry that you're in and the dynamics of your products and what you're trying to do.

00:26:40,661 --> 00:26:45,159
Right, if you, I'll use my experience in owning a restaurant.

00:26:45,159 --> 00:26:47,016
We were a very foodie based restaurant.

00:26:47,016 --> 00:26:57,279
We worked with farms all across Colorado and made everything from scratch, so that that defined part of our culture too, of who we were, right.

00:26:57,279 --> 00:27:07,278
I also one of our clients is in an industry that is very like servant minded, helping other people's and during really hard times, right.

00:27:07,278 --> 00:27:09,483
So inherently that's part of their culture.

00:27:09,483 --> 00:27:36,450
But other elements is you got to just be very deliberate in creating it and digging in deep and getting help with that right, partnering with the right sort of people that could be your own team, and from literally all levels, the mailroom to the CEO, just teaming up with the right people to really understand how do we approach these sort of cultural elements.

00:27:36,450 --> 00:27:38,747
But you have to be deliberate in creating it.

00:27:38,747 --> 00:27:44,828
It is like building a house, right, you have to start with the foundation and then you have to even step back right.

00:27:44,828 --> 00:27:52,779
You have to start with the blueprint, right and architectural plans and then build the foundation and start building walls and deciding where you want to put the windows and deciding what.

00:27:52,779 --> 00:27:59,105
We've got beautiful sunlight that could come in through this wall, so let's make sure we put windows there.

00:27:59,105 --> 00:28:01,186
It's no different than a company right.

00:28:01,186 --> 00:28:11,190
It's how do you start building those sort of elements that are going to be impactful so much more beyond the element of just selling a product?

00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:13,887
Zappos, I think, is a great example of this.

00:28:13,887 --> 00:28:15,506
Tony Shay did such a good example.

00:28:15,506 --> 00:28:17,547
They weren't in the business of selling shoes.

00:28:17,547 --> 00:28:23,164
They really made this concerted effort of being in the business of customer service and that's what they defined.

00:28:23,164 --> 00:28:23,928
They said you know what?

00:28:23,928 --> 00:28:27,347
We could have all the shoes in the world, we could sell whatever we needed to.

00:28:27,347 --> 00:28:34,551
But we have to define our culture based on being service-minded to our e-commerce customers.

00:28:35,259 --> 00:28:38,888
Yeah, Topher, I'll tell you what my word of the year for 2024 is building.

00:28:38,888 --> 00:28:43,945
So I'm loving your analogies of building a house, because I think that it's true of pretty much everything in life.

00:28:43,945 --> 00:28:48,308
Gosh, we're having a conversation about business today, but I think we can extrapolate it into everything.

00:28:48,308 --> 00:28:54,306
But I will be honest with you, it's actually not the analogy that I pictured when I was doing my research ahead of our conversation today.

00:28:54,306 --> 00:29:04,727
I saw somewhere where you described John Bein as a true matchmaking marketplace for our clients and candidates, and I was viewing so much of this through the lens of dating.

00:29:04,819 --> 00:29:11,291
Obviously, that matchmaking service and for me, what's true in dating is yeah, be you, Be authentically.

00:29:11,311 --> 00:29:23,086
You Show people your values, your the big things that you believe in, the small things, that you believe in the pet peeves, because those things have to be aligned, Even if it's like an amazing person that checks all the boxes, but those things are off.

00:29:23,086 --> 00:29:25,909
It's not going to be a big fit or a good fit.

00:29:25,909 --> 00:29:33,666
And along those lines, Topher, when I think about dating, well, dating is a lower cost of entry because you can go on a few dates with somebody.

00:29:33,666 --> 00:29:35,165
You can quickly figure these things out.

00:29:35,165 --> 00:29:44,045
But when it comes to hiring, when it comes to growing a team, when it comes to business partners, when it comes to all of these, I think we kind of skip the dating phase and we go straight to marriage.

00:29:44,045 --> 00:29:51,425
How the heck do we gauge if these people are a good fit for all these things that you just shared with us without having that ability to date?

00:29:51,425 --> 00:29:56,848
Or is there a way to replicate the dating in the form of a combine or something like that?

00:29:56,848 --> 00:29:59,508
I'm dying to hear how you get on the insides of that.

00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:13,067
Yeah, the dating and the marriage thing is so funny because we another thing that we have to coach both our clients and our candidates on is, like you don't tell this person that you're smitten over that you love them on the first date, right.

00:30:13,067 --> 00:30:33,625
But we often see that happening in the workplace, like we see candidates just gushing over the company without ever getting to know them, and I think that's part of the bad fit that happens in companies and part of what we're trying to break the mold of right and hiring in general is this very linear process, if I can give an analogy with this.

00:30:33,625 --> 00:30:45,328
To me, what I see current hiring happening is kind of like imagine a train track and on that train track, each job is a train on the train track.

00:30:45,328 --> 00:30:56,188
Well, in order to get onto that job train right For that particular company, you have to know what the train schedule is, where the train stations are, and you better be on time, right.

00:30:56,188 --> 00:31:00,188
If you're too early or too late, you're missing that train completely, right?

00:31:00,299 --> 00:31:08,630
So we're at Job I we're really trying to look at well, how do we reframe the idea of how we can play matchmaker right?

00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:09,804
How we can?

00:31:09,804 --> 00:31:12,165
Yeah, we're gonna look at all the cultural elements.

00:31:12,165 --> 00:31:15,826
That's really, really important, and you can use some of the.

00:31:15,826 --> 00:31:22,847
I've actually haven't used a dating app, but like the, I believe the elements of a dating app of like do you like long walks in the park?

00:31:22,847 --> 00:31:23,470
Well, I do too.

00:31:23,470 --> 00:31:32,007
We can do a lot of those elements in the way that we hire people, through culture, right Through those pieces that we talked about.

00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:46,682
But I think it's really important to have a mediator in that process and to support both the candidates and our clients, and that's what our agents are right, that's what we believe, our, what we do.

00:31:46,682 --> 00:31:48,249
That's such a huge part of our job.

00:31:48,249 --> 00:32:17,131
So, yeah, we have this combined evaluation, but I think that instead of and what we see in most recruiting is, it's often very one-sided, it's a company or in-house recruiter, or it's even a recruiter working for a client saying you know, I'm gonna go to the market, I'm gonna find you that needle in the haystack or whatnot, and often we're just out there just trying to, you know, judge people and like all right, let's just qualify everyone until we have one person that we can totally qualify right.

00:32:17,131 --> 00:32:22,883
And I think there's just inherently a lot of mistakes that happen and inherently it's a hard process to.

00:32:22,883 --> 00:32:32,788
So we take a lot of bad shortcuts as well, and so the idea of, instead of being on that train track, it's like how do we create an ecosystem, right?

00:32:32,788 --> 00:32:57,186
How do we create an environment where we're bringing both candidates into a program, we're bringing clients into a program, and that, to me, that was the aha moment of the combine programs that the NFL, major League Baseball and Soccer do is they don't expect athletes, you know, in the NFL they, for instance, they don't expect athletes to go to all 32 different cities to be evaluated by 32 different general managers and scouts and coaches and everything else.

00:32:57,186 --> 00:33:10,329
They bring everybody into one centralized place in Indianapolis and they they bring all of the coaches, scouts and evaluators into that environment to test on the same standardized metrics.

00:33:10,329 --> 00:33:22,002
And to me, that's such a powerful way of looking at a new way of trying to matchmake right, of trying to align people and companies is evaluating through those standardized metrics.

00:33:22,002 --> 00:33:34,913
And so for us, like if a client comes in, they get to see candidate A versus candidate B, using the exact same metrics to evaluate them, and I just think there's a lot of efficacy that we're seeing happening there.

00:33:34,913 --> 00:33:45,673
It's creating more informed decisions and but it also is really allowing our candidates to have a deeper look at themselves and why they may or may not fit.

00:33:45,795 --> 00:33:48,978
But it's so funny because I do coach candidates on this as well.

00:33:48,978 --> 00:33:56,406
Like, I know you want this job, I know that's a big piece of it, but don't tell, don't tell this company that you love them on the first date, because you shouldn't.

00:33:56,406 --> 00:33:58,826
Right, you got to get, you have to get to know them.

00:33:58,826 --> 00:34:03,317
So let's cut through a lot of that noise of just wanting to be chosen as people.

00:34:03,317 --> 00:34:07,199
Let's take our time, and so often we're coaching our candidates through the process.

00:34:07,199 --> 00:34:11,918
I mean, look, we get paid if they get hired, but I'm coaching them throughout this entire process.

00:34:11,918 --> 00:34:19,851
I mean, it's a lot of conversations, not just with our clients, with our candidates, of what did you think about this, you know, do you feel like your skills align with that?

00:34:19,851 --> 00:34:22,119
We really dive in deep.

00:34:22,119 --> 00:34:28,161
It's part of our evaluation, but it's also hopefully setting our candidates up for success in the long home.

00:34:28,782 --> 00:34:30,530
Yeah, gosh, topher, I'll tell you what.

00:34:30,530 --> 00:34:45,416
On your website, johnbinecom which listeners, we're going to drop that link again in just a second but on your website, which is a beautiful website, by the way your headline there is let's start a hiring revolution, and hearing the way you talk about it here today, it really is a revolutionary way.

00:34:45,416 --> 00:34:49,284
This is a totally different way than I think we talk about hiring in the marketplace.

00:34:49,284 --> 00:35:04,768
For me, as a business owner who's involved in quite a few businesses, who's constantly looking to hire people, this is a totally different way, and I love the fact that, with regards to the matchmaking analogy and romantic terms, you talk about having that mediator, and I think about how many people.

00:35:04,849 --> 00:35:07,003
I work from coffee shops a lot, topher.

00:35:07,003 --> 00:35:18,614
I eavesdrop on so many first dates and I always look at you know the guy and the girl, and I'm sitting there and I'm just like, oh gosh, they're not right for each other, but there's someone so perfect for each of these people and it's true.

00:35:18,614 --> 00:35:30,384
And so what I'm hearing for you is that it's actually better for everybody, because it really is that if you're sitting in a job interview and that company is not a good fit for you, you're a perfect fit for someone else and they're a perfect fit for someone else.

00:35:30,384 --> 00:35:34,880
So let's, on a really macro level, make those right matches happen.

00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,070
So I absolutely love your approach to that.

00:35:37,492 --> 00:35:42,210
As we come towards the end, I knew we'd be running out of time here today, but I still want to squeeze a little bit of brilliance out of you.

00:35:42,210 --> 00:35:47,992
I want to hear your longer term thoughts, because you are not doing this for a short term.

00:35:47,992 --> 00:35:50,445
You know incremental improvement in the hiring sphere.

00:35:50,445 --> 00:35:52,931
You are trying to start a hiring revolution.

00:35:52,931 --> 00:35:54,626
What does that look like long term?

00:35:54,626 --> 00:36:00,469
Who are you out there to serve and what's your plan for penetrating that market to actually make these changes happen?

00:36:01,614 --> 00:36:08,130
I appreciate you letting me talk about the long term vision, because I came up with this idea in 2015.

00:36:08,130 --> 00:36:19,295
I have been stewing on this how to make it impactful for the betterment of the workplace and the vision long term is.

00:36:19,295 --> 00:36:25,755
We believe agents being our backbone is a huge piece of that puzzle.

00:36:25,755 --> 00:36:35,364
We didn't want to create just another platform, another bloated SaaS software to sell to existing recruiting firms and to companies.

00:36:35,364 --> 00:36:45,505
We felt that the way to be able to penetrate that true change, no matter what we're doing now is just getting started right Is our current John Byn 1.0 iteration.

00:36:45,505 --> 00:36:48,371
What we see tomorrow and the next day and the next day.

00:36:48,371 --> 00:36:56,827
That is where we really believe that revolution is going to be able to come and change is going to be able to come and that'll be through our agent model.

00:36:56,827 --> 00:37:04,273
So we love using the idea of remax One, because remax started in Colorado Dave Linnaker in the 70s.

00:37:04,273 --> 00:37:11,356
Based in Colorado, he saw a lot of the same pains in the real estate market as we see today in the recruiting market.

00:37:11,356 --> 00:37:16,806
So we love using remax to shout out another Colorado company.

00:37:16,806 --> 00:37:25,409
But the vision of having agents in very specific industry niches and job type niches is going to be huge.

00:37:25,409 --> 00:37:38,132
They're going to be subject matter we already have it today with our current agent base is focused in certain industry niches and job role types and building that from there Having a.

00:37:38,132 --> 00:37:45,956
We see a future where we have tens of thousands of agents across the country supporting the entire job market.

00:37:45,956 --> 00:37:57,351
The beauty of that as well is, through our evaluation platform, we're able to give clients more opportunities to see a more diverse set of candidates that are already pre evaluated.

00:37:57,351 --> 00:37:58,436
They're pre vetted.

00:37:58,436 --> 00:38:09,288
We're essentially giving them an entire first you could argue even a second round interview with all of the we call it data, depth and heart behind who a person is.

00:38:09,288 --> 00:38:11,552
But it's an economies of scale thing.

00:38:11,552 --> 00:38:16,030
You know, we're just getting started now and we're building our agent base.

00:38:16,030 --> 00:38:18,481
That's part of what we see ourselves.

00:38:18,481 --> 00:38:26,963
We're not going to just be another agency where we have a bunch of recruiters working under us and just trying to incrementally grow.

00:38:27,304 --> 00:38:35,264
We truly see this almost as a model where agents are their own entrepreneurs.

00:38:35,264 --> 00:38:56,420
That's my daughter calling it out beautifully right, I'm an entrepreneur helping other entrepreneurs, that being our agents, and that is going to be the future, where they are their own business owners, but they have all the right tools, the support, the platform, the technology stack, the community, the agents that are most interested in job buying right now.

00:38:56,420 --> 00:38:57,965
They're craving that community.

00:38:57,965 --> 00:39:01,503
They own, maybe, their own recruiting firm, but they're working by themselves.

00:39:01,503 --> 00:39:02,447
They need that support.

00:39:02,447 --> 00:39:06,364
They need that coaching, the accountability, the advocacy, right.

00:39:06,364 --> 00:39:22,952
So having all of those sort of frameworks to support our agents in turn we see as a huge boon for the hiring market to be able to tap into what we're doing with our evaluations and heck, we're just getting started with our evaluation.

00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:35,161
We see a future where we're helping military veterans after being deployed and coming to the private space, having specialized combines that are geared towards supporting them and their special skills.

00:39:35,161 --> 00:39:41,929
We see a combine supporting moms where they might have a degree in something.

00:39:41,929 --> 00:39:46,753
They were in the workplace for 10, 20 years and perhaps they they took a break from the workplace to raise their kids.

00:39:46,753 --> 00:39:49,106
What a beautiful entrepreneur journey.

00:39:49,106 --> 00:39:49,849
That is right.

00:39:49,849 --> 00:39:51,793
But now they're re-entering the workforce.

00:39:51,793 --> 00:39:53,077
It's so hard.

00:39:53,077 --> 00:39:59,648
We coach so many, so many moms that are wanting to return in the workforce, but they struggle with the howl behind it.

00:39:59,969 --> 00:40:09,376
So we see a future where we're able to create customized combines that are just for that sort of group and really, again, we're always going to have a heart for hiring.

00:40:09,376 --> 00:40:21,438
That is part of our ethos, it's part of our culture, it's part of who we're looking for as other people that have a heart for hiring, for culture, for doing more with our workplace purpose.

00:40:21,438 --> 00:40:24,389
But it's going to take some time.

00:40:24,389 --> 00:40:30,396
It's going to take more crazy individuals joining the revolution as agents, as our clients, as our candidates.

00:40:30,396 --> 00:40:41,248
So I'm so, so excited to see where that goes and I hope maybe, brian, you and I can hop on in the years ahead and kind of see that arc and that journey coming to fruition.

00:40:41,849 --> 00:40:52,047
Heck, yes, I'll tell you what, tofer, as a native New Englander, revolution is at the core of my DNA and I see the vision of what you're doing and I'm so excited to follow it along the years.

00:40:52,047 --> 00:40:53,875
And, heck, yeah, please involve me.

00:40:53,875 --> 00:41:08,675
I want to do all the things with what you're up to because I think that it's such a meaningful thing and, like I said, I genuinely think what makes your approach to this so different is that it's literally better for everybody on the employer side, on the person who's applying for the job side.

00:41:08,675 --> 00:41:12,630
There's so much that makes this incredibly difficult, it is for sure.

00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:23,592
Still I mean 16 years into my entrepreneurial journey I will very openly admit that this is the hardest thing to get right in our entrepreneurial careers is building that right team, hiring the right talent.

00:41:23,853 --> 00:41:34,300
I've hired a lot of people over the past 16 years and it's still something that I continue to learn to this day and I still continue to pick the brains of incredible entrepreneurs like you, tofer, because I think it's so important.

00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:35,909
So, yes to all of that.

00:41:35,909 --> 00:41:39,405
I'm so excited and you already know what my last question is going to be to you.

00:41:39,405 --> 00:41:45,614
I have no idea which direction you're going to take it because you've such a wealth of wisdom in a library of experiences to pull on.

00:41:45,614 --> 00:41:52,230
But with all the things that we've talked about here today and all the things that you've experienced in your own entrepreneurial journey, what's that takeaway?

00:41:52,230 --> 00:41:58,436
What's the one thing for all the entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs that are tuning in here today that you hope they walk away from today's session with?

00:41:59,445 --> 00:42:06,112
Well, I appreciate the chance to say that I appreciate, and even before that takeaway, there's just gratitude, right, gratitude for the journey.

00:42:06,112 --> 00:42:24,329
It's part of the takeaway is having that gratitude of being an entrepreneur and, brian, I'm so thankful for you for having this environment supporting entrepreneurs and people that are listening, that get to be in an environment to learn and just become better.

00:42:24,329 --> 00:42:33,784
So it's truly a gratitude over everything, right, my purposeful journey, my wife right, and I think all of our significant others that are a part of that.

00:42:33,784 --> 00:42:41,413
I mean my wife pushes me in ways that not only have helped me grow but I know are going to be life defining in our legacy.

00:42:41,413 --> 00:42:44,905
Heck, my kids I told you my parents, they were both entrepreneurs.

00:42:44,905 --> 00:42:53,782
I mean, I don't know what I would do without that part of the DNA that I have, my past, my mentors, my advocates, my partners I mean heck, all of those sort of things.

00:42:54,023 --> 00:43:00,177
But my biggest takeaway, brian and I'm excited to hopefully impart this is just don't take shortcuts.

00:43:00,177 --> 00:43:05,516
You cannot take shortcuts on people and to be very deliberate on that, people part.

00:43:05,516 --> 00:43:16,320
Right, there are ways of short cutting our businesses through technology and efficiencies and certainly AI and software and all those sort of pieces, but we can't take shortcuts on people.

00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:27,327
Does that mean that we shouldn't use really amazing technological advances like AI, like amazing ATS systems, the way that we ask questions?

00:43:27,327 --> 00:43:34,273
Absolutely, they need to be tools in the toolbox, though we cannot sacrifice the time that we're willing to put in.

00:43:34,273 --> 00:43:39,472
Again, we're expecting people to work a third of their lives in our company, right?

00:43:39,472 --> 00:43:41,802
A third of our lives are going to be spent in the workplace.

00:43:41,802 --> 00:43:43,568
So don't take those shortcuts.

00:43:43,568 --> 00:43:52,092
Don't ask questions that are going to try to trick the candidate and might get you to an answer that you think is perfect.

00:43:52,172 --> 00:43:55,568
Those shortcuts lead to those failures in the long run.

00:43:55,568 --> 00:43:57,175
So we have to be purposeful.

00:43:57,175 --> 00:44:01,351
We have to be purposeful in our process and we need the right partners to do that right.

00:44:01,351 --> 00:44:06,813
Maybe it is a rock star recruiter, right, and I'm not saying like a resume farmer or just like a sorcerer.

00:44:06,813 --> 00:44:17,467
You know somebody that's willing to put the work into understanding you and your company and who you are and why they might and what sort of candidates are going to really align best.

00:44:17,467 --> 00:44:24,612
Maybe it's someone that's in-house, that's solely focused on just trying to understand all these team dynamics and finding people.

00:44:24,612 --> 00:44:26,378
Or maybe it's a John Vine, right?

00:44:26,378 --> 00:44:33,945
But either way, don't take those shortcuts and expect healthy and successful and sustainable teams.

00:44:33,945 --> 00:44:49,496
So, really, you've got to build your recruiting systems and your recruiting partners around your true culture and defining what that is and all the elements that will make a difference in driving and sustaining your team for years ahead.

00:44:50,137 --> 00:44:59,550
Yes, really wise words of advice there for you from Utah, for I really appreciate you sharing all of those perspectives and insights for all of our listeners around the world.

00:44:59,893 --> 00:45:13,173
One of the earliest quotes that I can remember when I was a very young kid I must have been seven or eight years old and my mom bought me a quote book and I used to walk around with this quote book and people always look at this weird kid just walking around with a quote book and they would always say, like read me a quote.

00:45:13,173 --> 00:45:23,581
Well, I couldn't even list any of the quotes that were in there, except for one, and it was the one that anytime people asked me for a quote, I always said there are no shortcuts to any place worth going.

00:45:23,581 --> 00:45:32,556
So I think it's really wise words of advice from you here today, toh, for that goes so in-depth into all the things that you've lived, that you've experienced and that you're really starting that revolution around.

00:45:32,556 --> 00:45:39,070
So, along those lines, I know that listeners are going to be super eager to check out more about John Bein and all the great things that you're up to.

00:45:39,070 --> 00:45:42,048
I've already teased your website, but drop those links on us.

00:45:42,048 --> 00:45:43,755
Where should listeners go from here?

00:45:44,699 --> 00:45:45,181
That's great.

00:45:45,181 --> 00:45:46,206
Well, I appreciate that, brian.

00:45:46,206 --> 00:45:46,974
Check us out.

00:45:46,974 --> 00:45:49,577
Johnbeincom J-O-M-B-I-N-E.

00:45:49,577 --> 00:45:59,452
I actually have a little gift, too, for your listeners, so if they want to go to johnbeincom backslash entrepreneur, we have a page just directed right for listeners.

00:45:59,452 --> 00:46:00,980
Please check me out on LinkedIn as well.

00:46:00,980 --> 00:46:02,485
Just search for Toh, for Deutschman.

00:46:02,485 --> 00:46:07,557
I'd love to connect client Canada, anyone in the workspace who wants to chat.

00:46:07,557 --> 00:46:11,554
I'm here, I love conversations, I love meeting people and connecting.

00:46:12,144 --> 00:46:14,916
Heck yeah, we so appreciate that Toh for listeners.

00:46:14,916 --> 00:46:16,664
We're dropping that special link for you.

00:46:16,664 --> 00:46:24,456
Down below in the show notes You'll find the link to johnbeincom, as well as that super secret link just for all of us, so generously from Toh for.

00:46:24,456 --> 00:46:27,487
So definitely go check out johnbeincom, slash Wontropener.

00:46:27,487 --> 00:46:33,349
You'll find those links down below in the show notes, as well as a link to Toh for's personal LinkedIn If you want to connect with him.

00:46:33,349 --> 00:46:36,869
It's always amazing to have great entrepreneurs in your network.

00:46:36,869 --> 00:46:38,155
I cannot stress that enough.

00:46:38,155 --> 00:46:43,398
So, toh for, on behalf of myself and all of our listeners around the world, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

00:46:44,442 --> 00:46:47,510
Brian, it's a true pleasure and a lot of gratitude for you and your community.

00:46:47,510 --> 00:46:48,273
So thank you so much.

00:46:49,036 --> 00:46:54,588
Hey, it's Brian here, and thanks for tuning in to yet another episode of the Wontropener to entrepreneur podcast.

00:46:54,588 --> 00:46:58,505
If you haven't checked us out online, there's so much good stuff there.

00:46:58,505 --> 00:47:07,795
Check out the show's website and all the show notes that we talked about in today's episode at thewontropenershowcom, and I just want to give a shout out to our amazing guests.

00:47:07,795 --> 00:47:16,590
There's a reason why we are ad free and have produced so many incredible episodes five days a week for you, and it's because our guests step up to the plate.

00:47:16,650 --> 00:47:18,635
These are not sponsored episodes.

00:47:18,635 --> 00:47:20,228
These are not infomercials.

00:47:20,228 --> 00:47:23,739
Our guests help us cover the costs of our productions.

00:47:23,739 --> 00:47:34,679
They so deeply believe in the power of getting their message out in front of you, awesome Wontropener's and entrepreneurs, that they contribute to help us make these productions possible.

00:47:34,679 --> 00:47:43,172
So thank you to not only today's guests, but all of our guests in general, and I just want to invite you check out our website because you can send us a voicemail there.

00:47:43,172 --> 00:47:44,518
We also have live chat.

00:47:44,518 --> 00:47:49,130
If you want to interact directly with me, go to thewontropenershowcom.

00:47:49,130 --> 00:47:50,554
Initiate a live chat.

00:47:50,554 --> 00:47:59,974
It's for real me, and I'm excited because I'll see you, as always every Monday, wednesday, friday, saturday and Sunday here on the Wontropener to entrepreneur podcast.